Football 2011-2012

[thetime]

Lovely story in the independent today about mark halsey and jose.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/halsey-hails-mourinho-after-winning-cancer-battle-7631251.html

[eFestivals]

Im not trying to prove Scholes, play like Barca.

Good, cos he doesn't.

However good Scholes may or may not be - or has ever been - he just wouldn't get in the current Barca side.

My original point, one you've now strangely taken as something else, was that these players, including Xavi, aren't pressurised as much on the pitch because when you commit you get bypassed. Its those players that are good as opposed to the defenders being shite. As the video I posted demonstrates - where he clearly takes three players out of the game when Liverpool over commit.

It still doesn't excuse sitting back as QPR did at the weekend, cos having a goal scored against you - which was going to be the very obvious outcome - is worse than getting bypassed.

By giving no pressure, you allow someone like Scholes to play at their best. While he might play to his best if put under pressure, there's also a far greater chance of him making an error.

And as for one touch passing, is that one touch ball out to Giggs a fluke? A one off?

Oh, it happens occasionally in English football, but when it does it almost always takes advantage of loads of space and makes the accuracy of the pass of lesser consequence.

The one-touch I'm referring to is the sort that the current Barca do continually, and thru the tightest of spaces - spaces that footballers in England wouldn't try and pass thru even if they had all the time in the world to consider their pass.

[eFestivals]

http://www.goal.com/...he-best-of-his-

If pep guardiola rates him the best of his generation im sure he could scrape a place neil.

People forget he was a brilliant little striker aswel.

I'm not trying to berate Scholes - he's clearly a great player. But his skills lie in different places to the skills that Barca use as standard. And Scholes' passing just isn't up to scratch.

[pink_triangle]

Was hoping for a brad Jones red card, would have been good to see an ex wrexham keeper playing at wembley. I find players like jones odd, happy to stay 3rd choice and pick up a wage. Can't help but feel some of these players will regret it when older.

[eFestivals]

You get close and he still makes those passes and can cut out people in the oppositions midfield.

He makes those passes with less efficiency when under pressure - or are you claiming that putting him under pressure makes zero difference to what he's able to do?

If you give him all the time and space in the world - as he was given by QPR - then there's only going to be one outcome, as happened.

That's all I'm trying to say. But it seems that making a comment of sense and based on the real facts isn't acceptable.

And to say he can't pass a tight ball or under pressure is laughable.

it depends what a person means by tight ball or under pressure.

Does he play the sorts of tight balls under pressure that Barca do as a constant? Nope, he doesn't; he doesn't even try to do those sorts of passes, because he'd come unstuck too often if he did try.

There's a reason why Xavi thinks he's the best midfielder of the past 20 years. Why Guardiola thinks the same. Why Zidane rates him highly. Why Henry thinks he's the best player of the Premier League. Why Fabio Capello wanted him out of retirement for the World Cup at 35.

all those things say is that he's a great player. None of that says where his best skills lie, or that he's fit in the current Barca team, or that Guardiola would play him in the current Barca team.

If he played as he does in the Prem for Barca he'd be subbed by half-time, because he'd be giving the ball away too often.

Do you honestly believe that they would say what they say about him if he couldn't? Is your arrogance that high that you believe that your opinion on Paul Scholes is the correct one? Because with constant 'PMSL's' in your posts and how you've constantly tried to shoot everyone's opinion down, I get the impression you do. Now that is laughable. Especially considering when your an armchair football viewer.

What they say about him is zero of anything I've said.

Nothing I've said about Scholes is to slag him off. It's to say that his influence can be lessened, which then broadened out - via the sorts of non-specific comments you've referred to but which say nothing of Scholes' specific skills - into other things.

Has Scholes ever shown in his long career that he's able to make the tightest passes via one-touch and continually? No he hasn't.

So do please tell me what I've said that's incorrect. Or perhaps admit that what's incorrect has been the application of a few non-specific comments by you and others into saying that he's an instant shoe-in for the current Barca team.

Who doesn't have Sky and said a few weeks ago that you don't go in pubs with it on . So I'm amazed that someone who watches so little of him has such a large understanding of his game. Such a large understanding that it's better than the greats in the game.

If you go to Sky pubs you get to see a few games. If you go to the pubs showing footie that don't have Sky you get to see all of the games.

[eFestivals]

Andy Carroll repaid a huge chunk of that £35m tonight with the goal that surely keeps Liverpool up.

PMSL. You're not a Utd fan, are you?

[eFestivals]

On the subject of Paul scholes, these people know what they are talking about

and not a word of that is saying anything about what I've been talking about.

You Utd fans are blinded by your own arseholes.

[thetime]

and not a word of that is saying anything about what I've been talking about.

You Utd fans are blinded by your own arseholes.

[eFestivals]

Theres not a single person more blinkered than you neil. Everyone that does not agree with you seems blinkered according to you.

When everyone decides to pick an argument over something different to anything I've said, it's not me wearing the blinkers.

Care to tell me the name of any player who is 100% unaffected by being put under pressure by other players? You can't.

So I was correct to say that Scholes shouldn't be given all the time and space in the world as he was being given at the weekend.

Care to show me any match where Scholes makes more than one pass (if there's even that one) which would get anything near the sort of standard pass by the current Barca team? Again, you can't.

So my words were well placed, based in the facts and not the fantasies of Utd fans who wish to think of Scholes as untouchable and unequalled.

It ain't me with the blinkers.

If Utd fans could put down those blinkers for a second, rather than seeing red if there's any comment that can have a negative connotation taken from it, then there's the chance for a decent convo.

I wrote here a few weeks ago that I thought Suarez dived, and had people telling me I was sticking up for him. FFS, read what I've said, and don't invent your own words in your own heads.

[thetime]

But when you have all the best coaches and players in the world raving about him and certain barcelona players/coaches raving about him.

dont you think you could be slightly wrong and he could scrape a place in the barcelona team? Apart from the odd cl game, do you actully watch barcelona?

[modey]

The " scholes passing isn't up to scratch" just shows what nonsense the guy talks

One of the best passers of the ball ever

There is no point reading your shite any more

[eFestivals]

But when you have all the best coaches and players in the world raving about him and certain barcelona players/coaches raving about him.

But what do those actually mean anyway?

Is Pep the best coach? As far as I'm aware (and I could be wrong) he's only managed Barca, a team that needs little management - and it could well be the case that Joe bloggs could get the same results (we don't know cos it's not been tried) - but just about any coach, including those who are later considered shit, gets success with teams like that. When Pep has had a long career as a coach with success every season no lesser than he's had at Barca, come back and say again he's one of the best.

And what do the best players know, and do they know more than a 'best' coach? For example....

Postman Pat managed England. Plenty - including many here - said he was one of the best coaches in the world (tho those same people have been strangely quiet since June 2010 ). Little old me said it would be the most stupid decision possible to not take Walcott - and plenty here laughed at me. Pat seemed to agree with those people here, and didn't take Walcott.

After the world cup, the best player in the world (not even "one of the best", but "the best, indisputable") said that England would have won the world cup if they'd taken Walcott. A few months down the line, Pat ended up agreeing and saying he'd made a huge mistake by not taking Walcott.

So, "one of the best" coaches doesn't know shit, and "the best" player thinks that little old me knows a huge amount more than one of the best coaches and some people here. If i wanted to be a Utd-type arse I would claim that my views are indistinguishable from the best player in the world and posters here don 't know shit about anything.

But football is about opinions, and there's as many of them as there are fans. What one person says is just their opinion and it don't mean shit. It's a talking point, nowt more.

But just to further illustrate, a few weeks back, there was a discussion here after Carra said who he thought were the best players - and because he said something different to the the Utd-up-their-own-arses here, nothing he said was considered valid, it was bias, it was the opinion of a poor player (but a better player than anyone posting here, that's for sure), it was his opinions of his childhood favourites, and anything else that people here fancied to belittle his choices because they were different to those people's Utd fans' own.

So c'mon then, you people who believe your opinions are good and mine always bad, tell me which of these different opinions from some of the best and the very best should be listened to, so I can play moronic unthinking parrot just like you.

It wouldn't be, just by chance, that the opinions you say I should be l;istening to are the ones that match your own, would it?

But oh dear, you were wrong about Walcott, about Postman Pat, and even about how much the best players in the world should be listened to, seeing as the best player in the world has said you don't know shit.

It ain't me that's wearing blinkers. It's not me that's so stupid as to be thinking that quotes from the likes of Xavi mean anything., and it's the stupidity caused by your own blinkers that has you thinking that it does.

There's some food for thought, for those who are currently starving.

[eFestivals]

The " scholes passing isn't up to scratch" just shows what nonsense the guy talks

One of the best passers of the ball ever

There is no point reading your shite any more

One of the best ever? Get out of here.

Scholes passing looks about as shit as the passing does of every other player in England when put against the skills of just about every current Barca player.

He might be one of the best ever to play in England, but he's still a mile short of being the best ever.

Now, it might be that he is that good but doesn't play like that - but you've no more idea about that than I have, seeing he doesn't play like that.

And if you raise me Xavi, I raise you Messi. Top trumped.

[eFestivals]

One of the few players who can send a ball upwards of 30 yards pin point...

Anyone questioning Scholes quality is a turnip...

Then firstly, after last night, I guess that Martin Skrtl is one of the best passers in the world.

And secondly, I've not questioned his quality. I've said that his play is less effective if he's put under pressure - because it's indisputably true (to everyone but Nal and others with blinkers ), and that his passing is well short of being of the standard of Barca, because it is, Scoholes displays nothing of that constant close control.

He has skills, but they are not untouchable as the stupid would like the stupid to believe.

[The Nal]

And secondly, I've not questioned his quality. I've said that his play is less effective if he's put under pressure - because it's indisputably true (to everyone but Nal and others with blinkers ),

Edited April 11, 2012 by The Nal

[eFestivals]

Blinkers?

Originally I was talking about that sort of midfield role and mentioned 4-5 other players. Which you chose to ignore and concentrated on purely on Scholes in your predictable ABU way. And I'm blinkered? I was talking about football, about Barca's tactics, about the space Modric seems to get, about Xavi, about Alonso, Scholes' touch and passing and why teams dont rush out to him. And others.

My original point was to say that a team can't give Scholes the time and space he was given at the weekend, because he'll punish them. Which he did, which rather proves my point.

And I followed that up with saying that instead he needs to be put under pressure, because it makes him less effective.

You said that he'd play around other players getting onto him - something I've not disputed. But the simple fact remains that he's less able to do whatever he wants than if he's under no pressure, and he's therefore less effective.

Which, tho it sounds like me stating the obvious cos it's no great insight into anything, is undoubtably true. So I can't believe it's gone like it has.

You just reply selectively with the usual off the point stuff with loads of "PMSL" and smileys, "blinkered", "Idiots" and anti Utd stuff, while Ignoring the non Utd football fans here of course who also share the same point of view and posted intelligently about it.

there's nothing intelligent in presenting someone else's view to try and justify your own, particularly when it proves absolutely nothing at all - about what i originally said, or anything that's come since.

Yet again, a football conversation which you try sabotage with nonsense because your ABUness comes out when you see "Man Utd" in the topic, or, as I think in this case, you don't have the same level of knowledge that other posters do in here on this subject.

I started this subject - so it can't be anything about "when you see "Man Utd" in the topic". And so your take is indisputably wrong.

And I started this subject with my first words recognising Scholes big contribution to Utd's season, and followed that with saying how deadly he is when given loads of time and space - which is hardly ABU, is it?

And for you to prove your greater level of knowledge by proving me wrong, you'd have to say "Scholes is 100% as effective at all times when put under pressure as he is when he has all the time and space in the world".

Can you say that? If you do, I'll certainly be saying you have a much greater level of something, but it won't be knowledge.

Why shouldn't I stand up for what I've said when it's true? The fact that Scholes successfully gets his way past players that try putting him under pressure as you've said - but not all the time, don't forget - does not make me wrong.

I give up. Thats just silly.

does he thread every other pass thru a gap that you don't see players in England playing a pass thru, as the Barca players do? No he doesn't. So how the fuck is that silly?

I'm amused by your ABUness. The irony of you calling others blinkered amuses me considering your posts over the last few pages. They've been pretty ignorant and silly in terms of a greater understanding of the game to be honest.

How is it ABUness to state an easy truth?

There's been two players go to Barca from England recently, so they're the best to use as a comparison, tho I recognise they're not perfect.

First we have Mascho, one of the best defensive midfielders at that time in the Prem (I realise he played a more defensive role than Scholes). He cost a lot of money; they made a big fuss signing him. Even before he went, we all knew here he'd spend his time on the bench - and he did. He gets regular games now, but is the obvious and clear weakest link in the side, and is played in defence because his passing and ball control is exceedingly short compared to the rest of the team.

Mascho has lesser ball control than Scholes, by quite a margin - but he has an even greater margin to the likes of Xavi.

Next we have Cesc, the best midfielder in the Prem, with ball control skills that surpass those of Scholes (Scholes has skills in other areas that surpass those of Cesc).... who went to Barca to warm the bench. He gets to start now, but his passing is one of the weaker links in the team (it's visibly lesser than those around him).

None of what I'm saying there is calling Scholes crap, it's recognising that he's got, for whatever reasons, a different skill-set to the current Barca team, and he'd be out of place because of it. Nothing of that is saying that the likes of Xavi is wildly wrong with their comments (not that they mean anything, all the same), because skills he appreciates and who he might have found to be a tough opponent says nothing of that player's fit into the current Barca team - a team whose one-touch football and close control and tight passing is unequalled, is totally unique, and requires a skill-set which is not done in this country.

Not the Scholes stuff - forget that - I just mean a failure to understand how that particular midfield role (of which there 4-5 great players at the moment) shapes the game of football.

It certainly shapes the game when nothing is being done to try to stop him shaping the game, as happened at the weekend.

So how am I failing to to understand that, when it was a comment about that very thing which I started with?

No matter how excellent Scholes is when he's put under pressure, he's less damaging to the opposition when he is put under pressure than when he's given 100% free-reign. Limiting his options makes him less able to do good things than by leaving every option open to him.

[thetime]

Do you watch la liga neil?

[eFestivals]

You could pick a hat full of Barca players who also wouldn't survive in our game...

absolutely, spot on.

Me saying that Scholes wouldn't get in the current Barca side wasn't me saying "Scholes is shit" - even tho that's the only way that the Utd fans around here have been able to read it as saying.

It was me recognising that his skills are not the skills that the current Barca team plays with.

I don't think it matters one jolt if Scholes would get into Barcas side or if Xavi would get in the Man U side... I don't personally hold Barca up as an example of footballing supremos. Specially while they trail Real Madrid...

but they are the supremos of close control, one-touch football, and threading thru the tightest pass time and time again - all things which we don't really see in English football, as they're habits that are beaten out of players in England on the basis that they take a bigger risk of losing the ball than by playing the easy ball every time.

[thetime]

Does anyone know where I can download football manager for android? Supposed to be out today but cant find it on the market or anywhere.

[eFestivals]

Do you watch la liga neil?

Not enough to count, nope.

But I don't need to to see how Barca try to play, nor to know that no players in England play in that way, or that who was the closest in England to playing that way is struggling to match his Barca team-mates in playing that way.

Does Scholes try to play in that way? Nope, he never has (nor anyone in England, managers wouldn't have it).

Note for Utd fans: recognising that Scholes' skills lie in some areas and not so much in others is a different thing to saying "Scholes is shit". I do wish you could take this idea on board, it would save us all a lot of time.

[eFestivals]

Why are you stating the obvious ? This applies to every footballer on the planet...

I stated the obvious in response to QPR not acting on the obvious at the weekend, and Scholes scoring because of it. I posted to say how stupid it was of them to do that.

But, according to Nal, it's more stupid to not give him all the time and space in the world, which is why there's been this argument.

Mad, isn't it?

But apparently, I don't know what I'm talking about, I don't understand football, I'm an ABU, and all the other shit that's come my way .... because apparently I was wrong when I stated the obvious.

You couldn't make this sort of thing up, yet the blinkers remain welded to some people's eyes.

[thetime]

Not enough to count, nope.

But I don't need to to see how Barca try to play, nor to know that no players in England play in that way, or that who was the closest in England to playing that way is struggling to match his Barca team-mates in playing that way.

Does Scholes try to play in that way? Nope, he never has (nor anyone in England, managers wouldn't have it).

Note for Utd fans: recognising that Scholes' skills lie in some areas and not so much in others is a different thing to saying "Scholes is shit". I do wish you could take this idea on board, it would save us all a lot of time.

[eFestivals]

But you need to take on board people on here, coaches and players in the world thinks he had the ability and skill to do so.

What? Talk about twisted minds.

As far as some people here are concerned, Scholes shits gold and is beyond any suggestion of anything negative, as this tangent has got to prove for the zillionth time. I don't think anything else needs saying about the worth of those opinions.

And while lots of quotes by players and coaches have been presented, not a single one of them has said "he has all the skills needed to play for the current Barca team". Admiring a player for the skills he does possess is a totally different thing.

FFS.

Edited April 11, 2012 by eFestivals

[thetime]

Great players can be flexible enough to play in any system.

[The Nal]

snip

Edited April 11, 2012 by The Nal