Football 2011-2012

[eFestivals]

There could be a few retirements after the euros, which can't come quick enough..

Can see likes of Terry, lamps, Rio, Cole maybe calling it a day.

not Rio - around all that's gone on in the last few weeks he's supposedly made it clear via 'friends' that he won't be retiring.

A smarter man than Rio would have already wised up to the fact that he's already retired.

[pink_triangle]

, and if Johnson got permanently crocked today, Kelly would be right back for the next ten years. It's just a bit odd cos there's not so much central cover).

And when his own manager is saying he's not up to the tournament but the player is saying he is, who do you believe? I'd generally side with the manager with that.

(thing is, it's fergie - and he might be telling porkies for his own benefit).

[pink_triangle]

There could be a few retirements after the euros, which can't come quick enough..

Can see likes of Terry, lamps, Rio, Cole maybe calling it a day.

[eFestivals]

I dont think theres any guarantee that Kelly would be Englands right back for 10 years.

all I was really trying to get at is that Kelly is no shoddy player, despite his limited experience at the highest levels.

As for Fergie he would say that Rooney couldnt play these games if he thought it would lead to his international retirement.

yup, it wouldn't surprise me, and I suggested that Fergie might be telling porkies for his own club's benefit. But even so, there's no reason why Woy shouldn't take him at his word.

I would agree if you were only able to take a squad of 16 but a squad of 23 can cover that in my opinion. In the last world cup from memory other thant Terry none of the other centre backs played for 50% of the possible time.

they can cover it yep, but whether the manager wants to be swapping and changing is another thing.

For all the doubts about Ferdinands fitness he seems to have managed to play a pretty comparible amount of games to every other English centre back and his fitness record is far better than the man chosen as England captain.

How?

Rio has a permanently fucked back, which means it's a guarantee that it's going to fuck up sooner or later, and history suggests 'sooner' is far more likely than later.

Occasional injuries are just that, and it's perfectly possible (unlikely, but possible) that other players could go to then end of their career before getting another injury.

Against that you can of course highlight Gerrard's injury record, but I don't think it's been particularly bad in the last 5+ years or so, has it? I know he had about 8 months out from last April, but that aside I can't think of him being absent that often aside from early in his career when he suffered back problems (that supposedly went away with a change of training regime).

As for all round capacity I dont think there is much difference.

Really?

Scoring records?????

Terry is more likely to play 6 games but I dont think you need 23 players who can potentaily play 6 games.

You don't need players who can play 6 games, but it surely better to have them.

At the last WC, England fucked up in part because they took too many players who were never going to be able to play all the games, and once a few injuries kicked in it left the squad short of what it needed to be safe. If England hadn't got knocked out it might have been critical.

I also think why both are capable of defensive Howlers I would say Terry is slightly more likely to do so in a big game. From memory he made Matthew Upson look ok against Germany int he last world cup. I also have doubts how Terry copes not being captain, I get the impression he tries to take over things and remember in the last world cup he tried to undermine Gerrard in a press conference.

No one is thinking Terry is perfect. The problem mostly exists because too many are putting forwards the idea that Rio is.

Edited June 7, 2012 by eFestivals

[thetime]

I cant see cole retiring but think Gerrard should call it a day. His fitness record and gradual deteriation in form suggest to me that he is someone who could do without the extra games. However I wonder if the fact that (unlike the others on the list) he hasnt won much in recent years or is likely to in the future makes giving up more difficult.

[eFestivals]

On a sidenote I would of thought rio has started more prem games than lamps, Gerrard or terry this season.

Not sure about Terry, but probably right about Gerrard and Lumpard.

But it doesn't really mean a lot, because Gerrard's was a temporary injury that he's supposedly fully recovered from and Lumpard cos AVB didn't play him.

They're both very different things to Rio's permanent back problem which supposedly restricts him to one game a week in a tournament where they play 2 a week.

Were talking about the defence, but where are the goals going to come from? I can't remember the depth of talent in strikers being so poor.

I think Woy's plan is try and bore the opposition into submission.

Even if he'd taken Sturridge &/or Crouch &/or Bent the talent wouldn't have been anything much better. England doesn't have any outstanding strikers. Rooney is by far the best we have, but he's always going to be erratic in what he delivers.

England's best hope is for Carroll to come good I reckon - hugely unlikely, but stranger things have happened.

[pink_triangle]

all I was really trying to get at is that Kelly is no shoddy player, despite his limited experience at the highest levels.

[eFestivals]

Agreed, he has shown promise and also benefited from a lack of competition in his position.

if you're talking Liverpool his progress has been held back by the very stiff competition in his position.

He'd be the first choice right-back for nearly every club. He's not at Liverpool because he's unfortunate enough to have the established England right back at the same club.

The strange thing about Ferdinand is he played considerably more this season than the last 2 which is the opposite you would expect from someone with a chronic back injury. I think playing 30 league games (only 3 less than any rival) is enough to justify selection on fitness grounds. Fergie may claim he cant play more than 1 game a week but I would be amazed if he reached 30 games without playing more than once some weeks.

I've not checked it myself, but someone posted here in the last few days in a manner that suggested they had (and I think it was a Utd fan too), pretty much saying that nearly all of his appearances had a week between them.

In regards to any tournament it's the regularity that a player can play that counts, not how their season total might compare with others who play the same position.

I think its better to have players who can play 6 games if they are good enough, but if you dont have enough who are good enough then I think its worth a gamble on some who cannot but have some kind of proven track record in big games.

It's Woy's job to decide which gives the squad the most benefit - a better player who can't play much, or a lesser player that can.

While you or I might not make the same choices, surely you're able to see that it can be a sensible decision to choose the "lesser player who can" option in certain circumstances?

If I were in Woy's position, I'd very likely take Rio before Kelly (when considering the shortage of central cover, at least). But that doesn't stop me from being able to see why Woy might have made the decision he has on footballing reasons alone, particularly when the choice is being made between a player who is at the end of the international career and one who is just starting and looking like he has a fantastic future ahead of him.

I certainly dont see Rio is perfect, I see him in the top 4 centre backs in England.

I probably do too - but it's still the case that he's at the end of his top-level years, and Woy's job is about more than just this tournament (in theory, anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if the Euros are a disaster and Woy gets sacked straight after ).

Fergie chooses to play 'lesser' players than Rio at times despite having Rio available, because he's thinking of the future as well as today. Woy is allowed to do the same.

[pink_triangle]

if you're talking Liverpool his progress has been held back by the very stiff competition in his position.

In regards to any tournament it's the regularity that a player can play that counts, not how their season total might compare with others who play the same position.

While you or I might not make the same choices, surely you're able to see that it can be a sensible decision to choose the "lesser player who can" option in certain circumstances?

Fergie chooses to play 'lesser' players than Rio at times despite having Rio available, because he's thinking of the future as well as today. Woy is allowed to do the same.

[eFestivals]

I agree the regularity of playing is important but I dont think it is vital

<snip>

I can see some logic in Roy leaving Ferdinand out on the basis of fitness, its just I dont believe thats the main reason he has been left out.

In that first bit you appear to recognise that it's a matter of opinion as to how a person might view what is the best way to go with the squad.

In the second part, you again appear to recognise some reasoning & opinion that another could have, but then dismiss that as meaningless on the basis of your own opinion which is different to the stated opinion of Woy.

Woy is getting criticism over choices he's made when people like you can see a reasonable basis for his choices (even if you disagree with those choices)... but then dismiss that reasonable basis entirely, in favour of a conspiracy theory.

You've pretty much summed up there why this whole scenario is nuts.

I disagree with Woy's choices no less than you, but I'm not losing sight of the fact that they're far from unreasonable choices. Few managers would pick the same 23 players.

[pink_triangle]

In that first bit you appear to recognise that it's a matter of opinion as to how a person might view what is the best way to go with the squad.

In the second part, you again appear to recognise some reasoning & opinion that another could have, but then dismiss that as meaningless on the basis of your own opinion which is different to the stated opinion of Woy.

Woy is getting criticism over choices he's made when people like you can see a reasonable basis for his choices (even if you disagree with those choices)... but then dismiss that reasonable basis entirely, in favour of a conspiracy theory.

[eFestivals]

I cant believe that the Terry/Ferdinand thing is not a factor

I can. There wasn't massive criticism of Rio's omission when the squad & stand-bys were first announced, because overall it looked much as many people would have done and it had a certain balance.

It's only the injuries since then that has everyone thinking that it's in need of Rio.

But Rio wasn't on the stand-bys list, and Woy has decided to use the stand-bys first - which, while it doesn't bring in the much needed Rio, it is fair on those stand-bys who would have been very reasonably believing that they'd be the first called into the squad if needed, and had kept on training rather than going on holiday because of that.

And Rio had stopped training!

(and then you can add in the suspicion that he wouldn't be able to play all the games too, which makes a greater reason to swerve).

So, perfectly reasonable footballing reasons can explain his continued omission. The Terry thing doesn't have to come into it.

The fact that those footballing reasons I've laid out there aren't (as a result of injuries) giving England the best strength they could have doesn't demolish those good football reasons, it merely gives another set of footballing reasons that a person could choose to give higher weighting than Woy has done.

It's Woy, supposedly one of the gentlemen of modern football. I can see him giving a lot of weight to not wanting to shaft the stand-bys he'd already selected, by by-passing them in favour of another player - and one who had stopped training, and whose manager had suggested wasn't up to the tournament.

I'm not trying to say the Terry thing definitely isn't a factor, I'm saying there's reasonable explanations that support the idea that it's not.

Edited June 8, 2012 by eFestivals

[The Nal]

[pink_triangle]

Not convinced about Steve Clarke as a great choice, Im not convinced that he is an amazing coach from memory the only time a team with him coaching had amazing success was when chelsea were spending big bucks. Even if he was a great coach the records of coaches/assistant manager in the premiership is pretty poor.

I also think it is again a bit of a kick in the teeth for managers in the championship/league 1 with a good track record of achieving results as a manager but constantly leapfrogged by what I would consider are less qualified candidates.

[thesecretingredientiscrime]

But I think coaches have to be given a chance. They've learnt their trade, and by spending time with bosses in close quarters (ahem) they can learn a lot from them and take it on.

I do agree that perhaps it would be better for them to start lower down, for an apparent easier job, but for someone like Clarke, who's never worked or played outside the top flight of English football, I think he should have the chance to do what he knows. As I said, I'd agree for someone who's been in lower league football for a while, and knows it well, that it would be better for them.

Edited June 8, 2012 by thesecretingredientiscrime

[pink_triangle]

But I think coaches have to be given a chance. They've learnt their trade, and by spending time with bosses in close quarters (ahem) they can learn a lot from them and take it on.

I do agree that perhaps it would be better for them to start lower down, but for someone like Clarke, who's never worked or played outside the top flight of English football, I think he should have the chance to do what he knows.

[LondonTom]

[media=]

Edited June 8, 2012 by LondonTom

[thesecretingredientiscrime]

Learning from the managers they have worked with and applying the knowledge works well in theory but practice is a very different thing and the record of assistant managers/coaches making the step up is average/poor. I dont see the link between what flight of football they have worked within and managerial ability. Many of the premierships top managers had no experience playing or coaching in the league before they arrived.

[pink_triangle]

And how many of them have brought in people who have experience of the top flight immediately after they came in? I think there is a link, especially in English football, where each division is very different.

[thesecretingredientiscrime]

I can see how its beneficial to bring in to the backrooms staff someone with premiership experience if you have none but management is a completely diffferent skill set to other jobs. Management is very different to playing football, a poor premiership player is generally an amazing league 2 player where as a useless premiership manager is generally useless managing at lower league level as well. I fully believe that if you have good managerial skills in the lower leagues you can adapt them to the top league without ever having played or managed in it.

The trouble is getting the oppurtunity, these assistant manager/coaches (who have often failed) have often been given mid table sides who they have nearly got relegated. Generally for a lower league manager the only way in is promotion or taking over a club adrfit in the relegation zone, neither is an easy situation to come in. I fully believe a lot of clubs would benefit significantly if they gave jobs to people who have a track record of improving teams as manager instead of people because they were good at kicking a football or assuming they are good because they worked with a manager who was good.

Edited June 8, 2012 by thesecretingredientiscrime

[pink_triangle]

On the hand look at Pulis who people said was a championship type manager and he coped with the premiership with no problem because he is a good manager at every level. Someone like Adams is the opposite useless in the premiership and useless in league 2 doesn't matter what he has experienced he just isn't a good manager. Moyes as well coped with the league easily because he has good management skills. I think the idea that you need to have particular experience is a myth created to keep ex players on the gravy train with no evidence to back it up. I don't think a proven lower league manager would be expensive as they would jump at the chance. It's hard to make any judgement for certain as the opportunitirs for lower league managers are so rare.

[thesecretingredientiscrime]

On the hand look at Pulis who people said was a championship type manager and he coped with the premiership with no problem because he is a good manager at every level. Someone like Adams is the opposite useless in the premiership and useless in league 2 doesn't matter what he has experienced he just isn't a good manager. Moyes as well coped with the league easily because he has good management skills. I think the idea that you need to have particular experience is a myth created to keep ex players on the gravy train with no evidence to back it up. I don't think a proven lower league manager would be expensive as they would jump at the chance. It's hard to make any judgement for certain as the opportunitirs for lower league managers are so rare.

[pink_triangle]

Pulis was the youngest ever coach to get UEFA 'a' badge, which requires you to spend a long time around the top managers in the game. Also, I think you're putting a slight gloss on Pulis' career, he's not always had a great time. Moyes also spent a long time as an assistant, shadowing the top managers.

If you look at McDermott and Adkins, who both became manager, after being promoted from other roles in the club, they've both helped their teams progress massively.

[thesecretingredientiscrime]

I can kind of understand promoting your own assistant for continuity, i cant understand promoting somone elses assistnat with no track record of management. I have absolutely nothing against assistnat managers/coaches getting managerial jobs, I just dont think it should be in the top league.

[pink_triangle]

If I was a wba fan I would have nightmares thinking about the likes of Brian kidd, Sammy lee, Chris hutchins, les reed and Stuart gray!