Football 2010-2011

[eFestivals]

He doesn't think that though. He thinks he's shit therefore should be doing as he's doing. I suspect he won't change his mind until he starts doing something that will make him change his mind.

Very true.

Tho that doesn't seem to stop him making huge but empty claims for O'Neill.

[eFestivals]

this! martin o'neil would have beaten blackpool i reckon. and beaten everton for my money. i had a tenner bet on everton so shows what i expect from dalglish.

i think some of the teams at the bottom should be worried about west ham now. o'neil had instant success at celtic and i remember him making players out of people who were rotten the previous season. and at villa, they were at the arse end of the table when he took over and turned them round.

Oh, so a manager being shit in his last job doesn't affect your view of some managers - only Kenny?

[worm]

Very true.

Tho that doesn't seem to stop him making huge but empty claims for O'Neill.

[worm]

Simple fact: you favour O'Neill, yet I disagree.

[ampersand]

Roy Evans doesn't have any record of huge success - so it's hardly comparing like with like is it?

In your world from what you've said there, Fergie and (plucks name from the air) Mowbray are equal managers.

Blackpool - while L'pool perhaps should be winning that one, as yet there's no guarantee for any team to win any game. And the facts get to show that Blackpool are not the whipping boys that your comment is based on them being.

And Liverpool/Everton is ALWAYS a tight game that can go either way. There was little different about yesterday to the 4-4 between those teams which had Kenny quit* the first time around.

(* tho him quitting was about FAR more than just that result or anything about the state of the club at that time; it strongly included the fact that he'd been to dozens of funerals in the preceding years, and the effect that had had on him).

four+ months ago I was making a comparison of Liverpool and Spurs last season ... and the fact is that one club had many more players at the WC than the other.

Simple fact: you love O'Neill, yet there is absolutely nothing which suggests he'd get better out of those Liverpool players than Kenny might manage.

So I could rip your own view to shreds if I was so inclined as you with posting what is mostly empty words.

[worm]

Neil, you said recently that resources rather than managers are what breed success. If this is the case, then do you still believe that Liverpool, Everton, Villa and Newcastle have better squads than Sunderland. And if you do, how do you explain Sunderland's position given that they've had a much more profound sense of injury to their squad this season than any of the aforementioned sides?

[eFestivals]

Neil, you said recently that resources rather than managers are what breed success.

No, I've never said any such thing.

I've said that resources are a big part of a manager's success.

If this is the case, then do you still believe that Liverpool, Everton, Villa and Newcastle have better squads than Sunderland.

Ultimately, yes I do - but I doubt that this season will show it as that now. Sometimes a decent set of players will under-perform, and a not-so-decent set of players will over-perform.

And if you do, how do you explain Sunderland's position given that they've had a much more profound sense of injury to their squad this season than any of the aforementioned sides?

If you believe that's been the case then hello mr ostrich. Try paying more attention!!

That aside:-

1. see my comment above

2. Newc have more than got the better of Sunderland.

3. the season is not over yet.

[eFestivals]

how do you come to your mowbray conclusion?

he's a manager with nothing behind him, same as Evans.

If you're comparing Evans with Dalglish and using that as a basis to 'prove' Dalglish as shite, then why are you doing the same with Mowbray and Fergie? There's no difference between those two ideas - if Dalglish is as shit as Evans then it follows that Fergie is as shit ass Mowbray.

But all that is really proven here is how f**king stupid you're being and that there's no lengths you wo0n't go to back up your ridiculous idea.

but if kenny is as good as you say

care to show me any place that I've said "Kenny is good"?

Nowhere have I said that or implied it. What I have said is that he's the only manager whose successes get somewhere near to Fergie's.

But along with that I've stated on numerous occasions that we'll have to see how he does this time - but unlike you, I'm not so stupid as to think that the eight days he's had is enough to tell either way.

...then surely he should be able to keep hold of a 1-0 lead with 3 world class players to blackpools zero

1. only two of those players were available.

2. Fergie and the Man Utd players must be league one standard or lower as they lost to Leeds last year.

In case it's passed you by, number 2 is there just to show that you're talking number twos.

granted they might have got a lot of draws but liverpool weren't the bookies favourites for nothing.

then more fool you for thinking that bookies odds are based on what will happen in the game and not on how they maximise their profits.

are you sure you were comparing last seasons squads? until ralph pulled up the posts, you claimed that those posts were from a year ago. i can't be arsed to search.

This just gets to show your huge inaccuracies ... or that there's no end of made-up bollox you'll lyingly post to try and win a ridiculous argument.

Yes, I was working from last season's squads when I said those words initially.

At no point did I say those posts were from a year ago.

players at a world cup is a bit of a silly way to judge though.

it's certainly a usuable measurement of what other managers think (or thought, anyhow) of L'pool's players.

i do have reason to think o'neil would get better out of them. for the reasons stated had you bothered to read them. he is a guy that gets pretty instant results from what i know.

ahhh, OK - instant results and then it all turns to shit.

Perhaps Kenny will do the opposite, just as Fergie has at Utd? Crap results for a bit, and then world beaters.

I say this only to show that there's more than one way to be successful football manager.

and it will affect other managers. if you want to discuss tony mowbray who you mentioned just there. i predicted mowbray would do shit at middlesbrough. and so far, nothing to prove me wrong.

So ... Fergie does shit at Utd and Mowbray does shit at Middlebro and elsewhere, but there's no link between those two things. But because Dalglish has been shit for three games he's Roy Evans who was shit, and there's 100% definitely a link between their shitness.

Right oh.

[ampersand]

he's a manager with nothing behind him, same as Evans.

If you're comparing Evans with Dalglish and using that as a basis to 'prove' Dalglish as shite, then why are you doing the same with Mowbray and Fergie? There's no difference between those two ideas - if Dalglish is as shit as Evans then it follows that Fergie is as shit ass Mowbray.

But all that is really proven here is how f**king stupid you're being and that there's no lengths you wo0n't go to back up your ridiculous idea.

[eFestivals]

i know you've not but you're doing everything to argue with the people who say that he's no good.

No, I'm arguing against the grossly stupid mind that thinks that the three games he's had is enough to know either way.

He's a manager whose record is ONLY beaten by Fergie - and Fergie was as shit for years at Utd as you're saying that Dalglish is after just three games.

surely for you to be arguing this point, you must think that he'll come good.

I think that it's a possibility that he'll come good. I'm a VERY long way from definitely expecting it.

All I'm arguing against is the stupidity of your stance, that he can't possibly ever come good because he's not won in his first 8 days.

seen as you were saying it was a good move before any results, and 3 games in, you're making excuses for all 3 games.

I'm not "making excuses for all 3 games", I'm pointing out the stupidity of your argument from just those three games.

My point before his appointment was that appointing him was a no-brainer - in fact it was such a no-brainer that it's happened.

and yet again, i'm not basing the fact that he's shit on 8 games.

Very true. You're saying he's shit on the basis of just 3 games.

course it's to do with profits. but liverpool started out at 7/5, everton 2/1. they were favourites in the media too, who have nothing to do with profits.

two teams, just about equal in the league, with the one at home shading it as a betting favourite. Who'd have thought it eh?

you're right, it was ralph that said a month ago. sorry. but still, it was a question from me in september asking do you think liverpool have a better team than spurs on paper. to which you answered yes, with no indication that you meant last season. go check, it's only a page or two back.

I'm pretty sure that within the full convo that I had about those two teams I made clear that the L'pool team I was working from included Mascho (who might not have even left at the point the convo started, I'm not sure). I might have also said I was talking last season, as they'd been little to work from for this season.

But even if I never said those things, that was indeed the basis I was working from. No amount of your genius mindreading is able to sensibly dispute that.

turns to shit? only from the expectations that o'neil created. he took them when they were likely relegation candidates and turned them into a team battling for top 4. they're now back to relegation candidates long after o'neil has left.

re-invent history, why don't you?

They'd turned to shit before he left.

They never got to the point of "battling for top 4".

With the players they had and the money he spent, if anything they were under-achieving rather than the opposite.

are you talking ferguson crap results for a bit at the start of his man utd career? or this season?

at the start of his Utd career. And it wasn't just "for a bit", it was for years.

again, where has ferguson done shit at man utd?

ahhh, with such a selective version of history, no wonder you think O'Neill a genius and Dalglish as crap.

and yet again, i wasn't comparing dalglish and evans for shitness. i'm comparing them for time out the game and how silly it is for a huge club like liverpool to bring in a manager who has been out of management for a decade. if roy evans was announced as new west ham manager, there would be raised eyebrows. and rightly so.

It's about the shittest angle for a comparison it is possible for you to take. I suggest that you read up on Evans managerial 'career'.

[luckysalt]

DARREN BENT TO VILLA 18MILLION! Handed in transfer request!

[jump]

DARREN BENT TO VILLA 18MILLION! Handed in transfer request!

[ampersand]

No, I'm arguing against the grossly stupid mind that thinks that the three games he's had is enough to know either way.

He's a manager whose record is ONLY beaten by Fergie - and Fergie was as shit for years at Utd as you're saying that Dalglish is after just three games.

[eFestivals]

DARREN BENT TO VILLA 18MILLION! Handed in transfer request!

yup - which gets to show that things aren't as rosey and and as straightforwards there as some would like to believe.

[eFestivals]

Whoa, didn't see that coming. He should stay at Sunderland otherwise it could just be another spell like at spurs.

I reckon there's gonna be a merry go round now with Carew & Young off.

just seen on TV (can't remember if it was Sky or BBC) that Sunderland want Downing in return.

[eFestivals]

three games generally isn't enough. but he's been useless for the past decade and beyond. and he's showing no signs of changing.

he had two short spells at clubs with their own internal difficulties at the time.

OK, L'pool have their difficulties too, but it's also the case that he's much better versed in what's going on at Liverpool (both at the business end and with the players) before he's even started than he got to be at either of those other clubs at the point he left ... and I don't think how much he cares for Liverpool can be understated too; decisions he'll make are likely to be for the long term benefit of the club rather than to try to shore-up his own position.

that is to the vast majority of the footballing world. the rest are you and liverpool fans/sympathisers.

Don't talk bollox. The "vast majority of the footballing world" knows better than to write off completely a very experienced manager after just 8 days in the job, unlike you.

The football world is more than smart enough to know that a manager who fails at one club isn't necessarily going to do the same at another. The proof of that is shown by the fact that well over half the managers currently managing in the top 4 leagues are 'utter failures' on your basis, while the league positions of some right now right now and the support of their chairmen gets to show very different to the idiot bollox you're spouting.

he can come good, of course he can. but he won't. sure he's going to win games, but will he justify the sacking of hodgson? i don't think so.

if he finishes the season in the same league position as they were when he took over (was it 12th?) then he'll have justified the sacking of Hodgson.

Hodgson was a dead man walking; Kenny won't be that at the end of the season if he achieves no better a position. While that wouldn't be any league improvement, it will have demonstrated that the club aren't prepared to wallow at the lower end of things under the new owners, and gives them a more solid base to take things forwards from.

you did. you gave 3 reasons as to why we shouldn't look too much into the first 3 games.

only in response to the idiocy you've spouted.

It's called "trying to wise you up". But as you're determined to remain stupid (even if your 'Kenny won't work' turns out to be true) then I shalln't bother again.

you're right, it is a no brainer. in that people with no brains clearly made the decision.

Are you really thinking that the smart men are the people supposedly about to appoint O'Neill, who quit his last club in a huff cos they wouldn't give him anymore money cos he'd bought lots of shit at silly prices who he never played?

And that a manager with that view will be happy and more successful at a club where he'll only get a fraction to spend of what he spent at Villa?

which is all i was saying. and now you're taking that same thing to mock me. great stance!

what part of "the same players and only eight days but they should be top of the league by now" - which is basically what you're saying - isn't mockable?

no, the fact is i'm not mind reading. i'm taking what you've said in black and white. the only mind reading neccesary is to work out what you say you meant but didn't write. perhaps write what you actually mean and don't leave the thing that makes a huge difference to your argument inside your head. makes quite a difference.

pull out ALL of my posts of that convo and show I definitely wasn't referring to last season, and you have a point. But as ever, you have none.

[ampersand]

what part of "the same players and only eight days but they should be top of the league by now" - which is basically what you're saying - isn't mockable?

[worm]

yup - which gets to show that things aren't as rosey and and as straightforwards there as some would like to believe.

[worm]

I've said that resources are a big part of a manager's success.

Edited January 17, 2011 by worm

[eFestivals]

i stated that before hodgson was sacked, dalglish would be a bad appointment.

to be a bad appointment he'll have to be a worse appointment - and I guarantee he won't be worse.

when dalglish was appointed, i said the same thing. so before a ball was kicked, i said he would be a bad appointment.

say it as many times as you like.

It only come true when he proves himself a bad appointment, something which hasn't happened yet.

i'm not looking at these 3 games and saying that dalglish is rotten and should be sacked. which seems to be the angle you're coming from to argue with me.

your angle today has "he's been bad so far" - which implies to me that you're adding the results of the 3 games so far onto your existing opinion. All that gives you is stupidly wild speculation without reference to any facts, up from being before merely wild speculation without reference to any facts.

Care to tell me which part of man management is no longer applicable to man management, so there's a basis for your twaddle beyond your wild speculation without reference to the facts?

all i've done is made a prediction. a prediction that, 3 games in, is looking more likely to be correct than rubbished.

Bullshit.

Which part of "eight days is too short a time to change anything much" aren't you getting?

i know it hasn't come true yet, and theres a slight chance it may not come true. but all i'm doing is sticking by that prediction.

Oh, you mean "prediction" now, and not the statement of fact it's been all morning?

[ampersand]

now go off and try to wind up worm now that the topic is changing to bent.

[eFestivals]

No, it gets to show that there was some truth in what you said when you suggested that the appointment of Gyan would push Bent out.

Well, if that's right it means.....? You were wrong.

(It's funny how you cannot even now utter those words )

But that's not what's gone on here. Bent wants out from "a club that's going to finish 6th" to join a club in the relegation zone. So it's clear to me that he doesn't think S'land will be deserving of 6th if they happen to get it, and that he believes a club I said has better players has better players.

[eFestivals]

No, you said that resources are bigger than anything the manager has to offer. So my point stands.

Your point would only stand if you'd said the same thing as I said.

Did you? or did you say something which I didn't say? The answer is: you've said something I've not said.

So you have no point, apart from fraud.

[worm]

Well, if that's right it means.....? You were wrong.

[eFestivals]

The key phrase here is 'to me'.

True. But it's me that gets these things right and you who gets them wrong. The current score is 6-0 I think.