Football 2010-2011

[Cardboard Box City]

each player should be judged on their merits - not on criteria invented by morons in an attempt to substantiate their bollocks and inknowledgeable point of view...

Anyway, the fact remains Bent is a far better player than Ngog

[eFestivals]

Ah but that wasn't the argument. The argument was that players hadn't played for top 4 clubs weren't quality and this was backed by the fact that big clubs weren't interested in them. But it doesn't add up as there can be more than one reason for a player not playing for a top four club.

I'll be told next Trevor Brooking wasn't quality. After all never even finished a season in the top four, and indeed spent some of his career in a lower division.

It's poppycock - there are no hard and fast rules and each player should be judged on their merits - not on criteria invented by morons in an attempt to substantiate their bollocks and inknowledgeable point of view...

Anyway, the fact remains Bent is a far better player than Ngog

The argument hasn't been (from me, anyway), "that players hadn't played for top 4 clubs weren't quality".

I've been talking specifically about Bent, and just Bent. With Bent, there's more than just the top four that haven't taken one of many chances to sign him, there's the fact that three England managers haven't equated his Prem scoring with him being able to do similar for England, as shown by his near constant omission from England squads (he only gets picked when other strikers - often with lower Prem scoring - aren't available). That is a judgement they've made on him on his merits.

As for whether Bent is better than Ngog, I threw that line in initially more as a joke than in seriousness, but having written it and thought about it a little I can see how Ngog might well score a similar amount of goals as Bent if playing (and regularly) for

a team such as S'land. They have similar playing styles, and while I don't think Ngog will ever be a 'top top striker', he's obviously more than decent enough to have ended up at a club like Liverpool and for them to have stuck with him.

[The Nal]

awesome, Alex is out for 6-8 weeks and Terry could be out for months... just leaves us with Iva really hope Bruma manages to step up to the plate if he gets his chance... we're fowked defensively... december is gonna be fun

[Steve P]

Massive losses. Both of them!? Terry has no idea how long he'll be out for right?

[TheGayTent]

In a similar time frame:

Bent has scored 48 goals in 108 league appearances

Ngog has scored 8 in 48.

[eFestivals]

In a similar time frame:

Bent has scored 48 goals in 108 league appearances

Ngog has scored 8 in 48.

You're not comparing like with like there tho - most of the 108 appearances from Bent will have been full matches or most of a match, while most of those Ngog appearances have been bit-parts of 10 minutes or so at the end of a match.

And that aside, I've not said that I'd expect that sort of scoring record from Ngog at Liverpool, in fact I've said that I wouldn't. But like most strikers, if he played for a weaker team he'd be more likely to score more often I reckon, particularly as his pace is most suited to a team that scores on the break (which is more the case with the weaker teams than the stronger ones).

-----------------

Anyway, the real footie news today is Aldershot's giant killing of Brentford Nylons last night. .... it was even the main sports news on Radio 4 this morning.

[TheGayTent]

You're not comparing like with like there tho - most of the 108 appearances from Bent will have been full matches or most of a match, while most of those Ngog appearances have been bit-parts of 10 minutes or so at the end of a match.

And that aside, I've not said that I'd expect that sort of scoring record from Ngog at Liverpool, in fact I've said that I wouldn't. But like most strikers, if he played for a weaker team he'd be more likely to score more often I reckon, particularly as his pace is most suited to a team that scores on the break (which is more the case with the weaker teams than the stronger ones).

[ampersand]

Over 25% of Bent's appearances were as sub.

You think that strikers playing for weaker clubs get more chances created for them than strikers that play for stronger clubs?

Like I said previously, there is no point debating with imbeciles.

[eFestivals]

Over 25% of Bent's appearances were as sub.

You think that strikers playing for weaker clubs get more chances created for them than strikers that play for stronger clubs?

Like I said previously, there is no point debating with imbeciles.

No, I think that any good player who drops down to a weaker team will have a greater impact for that team than the impact they're able to make for a stronger team. And given that the very facts of football bear that out constantly, it's hardly a stupid thing to say.

For examples (plucked from my head), Jack Wilshire made a greater impact at Bolton last season than he was able to make at Arsenal; and with your own club, why would they ever have bought Carlton Cole? - because your take on things says that he couldn't score many for Chelsea so he'd score fewer for WHU (yet his score rate at WHU is noticeably greater).

Certain playing styles suit some teams better than they do others, and as an overall generalisation, strikers at strong teams score goals from constant attacking pressure while weaker teams score when on a break against that constant pressure. So the likes of Bent get to use their pace with few players being in the way to stop him, and via being able to use his pace gets to score plenty of goals. The opportunity to use pace in that way is much lower with the stronger teams, and it's on that basis that (IMO) he doesn't (much) get selected for England although his scoring record suggests that he should be one of the first names on the squad sheet.

Ngog is similar in playing style to Bent - pace, rather than the high level of skills of the likes of Drogba.

[pink_triangle]

I think neil has a point here. There are loads of times in football where players have been bought by bigger teams with better service and then flopped. Some players are just suited to playing for different sides. I personally dont think ngog would set the championship on fire, but its all opinion.

[eFestivals]

yup, neil has debated about the strength of the liverpool team compared to sunderlands. and liverpool's 3 world class players. you think they would create more for ngog than cattermole and malbranque will for bent. perhaps not...

The likes of Liverpool, Arsenal, Man Utd, Chelsea (and the likes of Shitty & Spurs and others towards the top) are mostly playing against teams which end up having 11 players behind the ball for a lot of the time*, giving their strikers little time and space to make use of any ball they receive. Because they have little time and space to make something of it, they have to be highly skilled to be able to put the ball in the net at a decent rate.

(* of course, what I'm saying here applies less with LFC nowadays than it did a few seasons ago)

Bent scores far fewer goals from his team putting near-constant pressure on the opposition's goal - his 'take rate' of those sorts of opportunities will be lower than it is for the likes of a Drogba, because he doesn't have Drogba's all-round skills.

In reverse, Bent gets lots (compared to the 'top' teams) of opportunities to score on the break - where having the pace to make the break ends up as being more important than silky skills to score a goal (that doesn't mean he doesn't have the skills to score goals, it means he has lower skills so doesn't score plenty of goals in all situations).

I'm saying nothing that's stupid here. If you've not noticed that this is how games are played out, then much of what goes on on the field is passing you by.

[The Nal]

I think neil has a point here. There are loads of times in football where players have been bought by bigger teams with better service and then flopped. Some players are just suited to playing for different sides. I personally dont think ngog would set the championship on fire, but its all opinion.

[ampersand]

Theres defo players who find “their level”. Robbie Keane for example. Not a top 4 player. Danny Murphy at Fulham too. Maybe Bent is at his level now.

[eFestivals]

Theres defo players who find “their level”. Robbie Keane for example. Not a top 4 player. Danny Murphy at Fulham too. Maybe Bent is at his level now.

Yep, that's all I'm saying.

Perhaps I'm wrong to believe that Bent is currently playing at around the highest level he can, but I'm certainly not the only person who thinks that - his near-constant omission by three England managers when his scoring record says he should be one of the first names on the squad sheet says that they think similar, as well as the top clubs not buying him despite the opportunities if they'd have wanted him, and Spurs selling him at a time when they've been highly ambitious (so clearly didn't see him as someone able to help deliver their ambitions).

[TheGayTent]

I'm saying nothing that's stupid here. If you've not noticed that this is how games are played out, then much of what goes on on the field is passing you by.

[eFestivals]

yup, and it will come for ngog in time as well. if he stays at liverpool or a team of similar size/quality, then there is something horibly wrong.

i can see him ending up at wigan or blackburn or similar if he stays in england.

Yep, me too.

And for clubs such as those I reckon he'd do a decent job - not hugely different to Bent at Sunderland, even if he doesn't bang them in at quite the same rate (as I've said, I see it as a reasonable possibility that he'd match him or perhaps even better him - but if I'm wrong he wouldn't be massively lesser).

[TheGayTent]

For examples (plucked from my head), Jack Wilshire made a greater impact at Bolton last season than he was able to make at Arsenal;

[worm]

Perhaps I'm wrong to believe that Bent is currently playing at around the highest level he can

[eFestivals]

That almost totally depends on where a team is playing. Man Utd and Arsenal for over a decade perfected the art of soaking up pressure when playing away from home and scoring on the break.

I've lost count of the amount of times I've seen West Ham dominate a half against either of them at home but go in two goals down.

Doubtless you will have missed this because you can't see the whole field from your comfy armchair.

I'm talking generalisations - so they'll of course be plenty of exceptions people can flag up where top teams don't apply near-constant pressure. But overall what I've said holds true.

And what you say about WHU backs up what I'm saying, it doesn't knock it. If you'd had a striker with the skills of (say) Drogba you'd have been much more likely to score from that pressure than you've managed.

[ampersand]

Because we couldn't afford any better.

[TheGayTent]

I'm talking generalisations - so they'll of course be plenty of exceptions people can flag up where top teams don't apply near-constant pressure. But overall what I've said holds true.

And what you say about WHU backs up what I'm saying, it doesn't knock it. If you'd had a striker with the skills of (say) Drogba you'd have been much more likely to score from that pressure than you've managed.

[TheGayTent]

what's happened to your youth setup? nae strikers coming through?

[worm]

Bent gets lots (compared to the 'top' teams) of opportunities to score on the break - where having the pace to make the break ends up as being more important than silky skills to score a goal.

[eFestivals]

I'd say a regular position for a potential top six side and international inclusion is canny high.

only when they ARE a top-six side (at the end of the season) can that first bit have any relevance. Come back when they are.

As for the second, the majority of the time he's excluded and in preference the managers have chosen players with a lower scoring record. That's not down to any Bent blindness by the last three England managers, it's down to how highly they (don't!) rate his skills.

So what? You'll always find someone to agree with you.

PMSL

On this occasion you're not referring to any 'neil clique' your fantasies have invented, you're referring to three England managers and a greater number of managers of the better clubs in this country over the best part of ten years - and all of those top football professionals haven't rated him very highly, as shown by them not wanting him.

And how they regret it now.

PMSL ... their best finish with Bent was what? And their best finish since he's left is what?

So if he's not that great are Sunderland destined for better things without him?

he's not the player that will give you the top six finish you think you';re heading for. He will of course contribute to it, but others will be more responsible for it if it happens.

As for his longer-term future, if S'land have the funds to achieve the sort of position you think they're heading for, then I think it's quite likely that Bent will be out of the door in the summer - they need better than him to get there and stay there.

Because to tell you the truth, Gyan looks far better.

for once I can agree with the football expert that knows so much he doesn't even know the name of the club he supports.

[eFestivals]

Ha - if we had better players we'd be a better team?

Ultimately, that's exactly what I'm saying.

I'm saying that if S'land had better than Bent they'd stand a decent chance of hitting the fantasy heights that worm thinks they'll achieve this season.