Proposed Changes to the Licence

[cejx]

Enter troublesome dick stage left...

tbh trying to understand any concept of the policing of this is making my brain hurt.

I havent seen this mentioned anywhere yet so my ha'pennies worth is going to be laid out on the debating table.

HOW is this going to be policed? The brain hurt I have is trying to contemplate how or when people will be told/allowed to physically start queueing and where?

As a regular arrivee at West car park to enter at what is now White Gate (for the easiest access to Pennards), the regular queueing field has a clearly marked entrance that could easily be gated off to stop anyone 'pre-queue-queueing'.

It is the 'pre-queue-queueing' that would have to be policed quite severely yes? As soon as the first cars arrive, will bodlings run over to the start of Pre-Queue 1 that will lead to a firkin gigantic queue of folk sleeping under the stars/rain just to be in line for the later queue that will open at 8am or whatever the time will be?

Tempers will very likely be ridiculously frayed after an uncomfortable, alcohol fuelled (and who knows what the bloody weather will be like!!!) night and to wake up/stay up all night watching the Pre-Queue-Queue become stupid before one has to even contemplate the following 2-6+ hours of ACTUALLY TRYING TO GET IN ONCE THE GATES HAVE OFFICIALLY OPENED...

an example...you are parked at the top of West whatever cos you were the first to arrive at 5pm Tuesday, you wake up at 6am to find that everyone else has pre-empted the queueing and you now have to lug all your gear from the top of the car park to the BOTTOM of the field to join a queue that is going back up the hill and not likely to move for at least a further 3 hours...that's just one example!

Yay...Wednesday morning's going to be a fun occasion isnt it???

I know we as Brits enjoy a queue but a potential double queueing system that could last for over 15 hours...erk!!!

My brain hurts so much trying to understand how GFL plan on doing this without people getting upset.

Best suggestion...a timed ticket system? First arrivals get to start physically queueing from a certain time and so on and on so that there is not a human queue snaking back to G Town from 5pm on the Tuesday!

It works for many other types of events with timings. Could it work for the G and its suggested early bird car park thang?

[bunchy]

Don't.you.guys.think.it's.cool.then?

Maybe.I.should.stop.it.then

[eFestivals]

HOW is this going to be policed? The brain hurt I have is trying to contemplate how or when people will be told/allowed to physically start queueing and where?

As a regular arrivee at West car park to enter at what is now White Gate (for the easiest access to Pennards), the regular queueing field has a clearly marked entrance that could easily be gated off to stop anyone 'pre-queue-queueing'.

It is the 'pre-queue-queueing' that would have to be policed quite severely yes? As soon as the first cars arrive, will bodlings run over to the start of Pre-Queue 1 that will lead to a firkin gigantic queue of folk sleeping under the stars/rain just to be in line for the later queue that will open at 8am or whatever the time will be?

Tempers will very likely be ridiculously frayed after an uncomfortable, alcohol fuelled (and who knows what the bloody weather will be like!!!) night and to wake up/stay up all night watching the Pre-Queue-Queue become stupid before one has to even contemplate the following 2-6+ hours of ACTUALLY TRYING TO GET IN ONCE THE GATES HAVE OFFICIALLY OPENED...

I queued for over an hour to get in the gates last year. There were no frayed tempers.

Why should it be different this year? Yes, there might be a longer wait, but what's the problem? You get in when you get to the front the queue, and that's a surprise for no one.

Some people queued outside on the roads for 12+ hours last year. There were no frayed tempers.

an example...you are parked at the top of West whatever cos you were the first to arrive at 5pm Tuesday, you wake up at 6am to find that everyone else has pre-empted the queueing and you now have to lug all your gear from the top of the car park to the BOTTOM of the field to join a queue that is going back up the hill and not likely to move for at least a further 3 hours...that's just one example!

Firstly, the car parks won't open till 9pm, and as there's no advantage in arriving before then why arrive before then?

A queue of 3 hours waiting to walk in the gate is less hassle and less stressful than a longer queue to enter the car parks.

From some of the "oh my god, it'll be a disaster" posts being made here I sometimes wonder how some people are managing to wipe their arses after a dump. It's no less difficult than joining a queue and getting thru the gates when you get to the front of that queue.

[eFestivals]

My head hurts around the fact that through Health and Safety you are not allowed to sleep in your vehicle during the festival itself. With good reason. So, why and how on one night only, this H+S would be waived to allow car sleeping? Makes no sense.

I guess it hurts so much that it makes you unable to read the previous answer I've given you to this in this thread.

Any health and safety aspect for just about anything (including things massively more dangerous than sleeping in a car) can be properly managed with the right resources.

H&S do NOT say "no sleeping in cars at festivals, it's too dangerous". H&S say "sleeping in cars is fine if it's properly managed".

The reason it's not managed is because the festival doesn't want to pick-up the costs of managing it - it would require a much greater number of staff allocated to the car parks for the duration of the festival.

Seeing as 99.99% of people are inside the festival and not in the car parks then it would be daft for the festival to allow sleeping in cars for the very small number who might wish to do so, but have to allocate a large number of personnel to satisfy H&S that they're adequately managing those few people.

So it all makes perfect sense.

[Ommadawn]

i really dont give a f**k one way or the other regarding this nonsensical squabbling i just want o know what the deal is with this Okky and the full.stops.between.every.damn.word.he.types?

[NeilVJ]

People are moaning about queueing on the Wed morning, but ask yourselves

Would you rather be stuck in your car queueing for 2-3 hours or be queueing walking along driking a few cans of cider

[Glastoboy]

People are moaning about queueing on the Wed morning, but ask yourselves

Would you rather be stuck in your car queueing for 2-3 hours or be queueing walking along driking a few cans of cider

[eFestivals]

Depends if it is hot and sunny or pi55ing down with rain.

no one will force you to stand in the rain.

[Glastoboy]

Neil, thanks for taking the time for answering my points. I am just sorry that your conclusion is that I am being an over-reactionary, tabloid-mentality dick. You couldn't be further from the truth but think what you like.

Rather than talking up 'trouble', I was raising some valid concerns about what I think is simply a bad idea. I sincerely hope that it goes as smoothly as you suggest, but if it doesn't it will be to the detrement of the GFL organisers who have done a sterling job rebuilding the festival's reputation with the locals, council and police over the past decade.

Also, I can't see how debating it on your forum is likely to affect the Council's decision - do they all hang out here?.

I've had my say now and I'll leave it at that before you paint me as a ranting Daily Mail fascist.

[eFestivals]

Neil, thanks for taking the time for answering my points. I am just sorry that your conclusion is that I am being an over-reactionary, tabloid-mentality dick. You couldn't be further from the truth but think what you like.

Rather than talking up 'trouble', I was raising some valid concerns about what I think is simply a bad idea. I sincerely hope that it goes as smoothly as you suggest, but if it doesn't it will be to the detrement of the GFL organisers who have done a sterling job rebuilding the festival's reputation with the locals, council and police over the past decade.

Also, I can't see how debating it on your forum is likely to affect the Council's decision - do they all hang out here?.

I've had my say now and I'll leave it at that before you paint me as a ranting Daily Mail fascist.

Those 'concerns' you have - do they apply to you, that you'll be doing all the things that you think might go wrong? I'm guessing that those things won't apply to you.

And that's a bit of a theme - lots of people saying "it won't work", but no one saying they'll be causing the problems they predict as very likely.

So who exactly will be causing these predicted problems, and with such large numbers of people that stewards and security - as well as self-policing by anyone with sense - won't be able to cope (while at the same time being able to cope with incidents of all kinds and at all scales during the festival itself)?

If the prediction of all these problems was applied to the festival itself, then I can't see how the festival could possibly ever happen (after all, it has a hugely greater number of people, all much more pissed up than will be the case in the car parks). Yet it happens without difficulties each year it takes place.

The festival is VERY experienced at managing people in these sorts of situations, and managing the people in the car parks over-night (which won't be massive in number, at least not those who want to party all night instead of sleep - and which will be [i guess] not in one group but at least two groups in the car parks on each side of the site) will be a far easier job than the people management required during the fest itself.

Yes, it's possible that how they try to manage it might turn out to not be the best way possible for it to be done and that error of judgement might cause some difficulties, but it won't be hugely wrong (because of their long experience) and so any issues from it won't be huge either.

Christ, if some of the 'fears'

[whisty]

Ask the people waiting in the Q for Gate A (I think it was) to open in 2008 when the stewards or whatever it was that happened were late opening. The Q to get in was not pleasant at all. I was lucky to be towards the front of that Q so not complaining for myself but after setting my pitch I did walk back to my vehicle past many hundreds of people waiting to get in, the Q went on forever & I felt sorry for those people. That occured with just an hours delay in opening the gate.

My concerns in earlier posts were in relation to that experience & I can only forsee with the car park being open all night that this problem could be magnified maybe 10 fold, who knows.

Something obviously has to change to alleviate the Wed morn traffic problems but I very much hope that due consideration will also be given to those people that pay the money (us punters) and that we are not treated like cattle.

Debate is good.

My last words on this subject.

Edited January 12, 2010 by whisty

[eFestivals]

Neil, thanks for taking the time for answering my points. I am just sorry that your conclusion is that I am being an over-reactionary, tabloid-mentality dick. You couldn't be further from the truth but think what you like.

Rather than talking up 'trouble', I was raising some valid concerns about what I think is simply a bad idea. I sincerely hope that it goes as smoothly as you suggest, but if it doesn't it will be to the detrement of the GFL organisers who have done a sterling job rebuilding the festival's reputation with the locals, council and police over the past decade.

Also, I can't see how debating it on your forum is likely to affect the Council's decision - do they all hang out here?.

I've had my say now and I'll leave it at that before you paint me as a ranting Daily Mail fascist.

Those 'concerns' you have - do they apply to you, that you'll be doing all the things that you think might go wrong? I'm guessing that those things won't apply to you.

And that's a bit of a theme - lots of people saying "it won't work", but no one saying they'll be causing the problems they predict as very likely.

So who exactly will be causing these predicted problems, and with such large numbers of people that stewards and security - as well as self-policing by anyone with sense - won't be able to cope (while at the same time being able to cope with incidents of all kinds and at all scales during the festival itself)?

If the prediction of all these problems was applied to the festival itself, then I can't see how the festival could possibly ever happen (after all, it has a hugely greater number of people, all much more pissed up than will be the case in the car parks). Yet it happens without difficulties each year it takes place.

The festival is VERY experienced at managing people in these sorts of situations, and managing the people in the car parks over-night (which won't be massive in number, at least not those who want to party all night instead of sleep - and which will be [i guess] not in one group but at least two groups in the car parks on each side of the site) will be a far easier job than the people management required during the fest itself.

Yes, it's possible that how they try to manage it might turn out to not be the best way possible for it to be done and that error of judgement might cause some difficulties, but it won't be hugely wrong (because of their long experience) and so any issues from it won't be huge either.

Christ, if some of people behind the 'fears' being expressed here were in charge of running the country then almost nothing would happen because their fears would over-ride the common sense that is running the world far more than any politician or policing force - the world keeps on turning, people keep on doing what they do, and very little goes wrong. Having some people park for a night in a field is not a huge issue, it's far closer to your local supermarket car park than it is any uncontrollable riot.

[eFestivals]

Ask the people waiting in the Q for Gate A (I think it was) to open in 2008 when the stewards or whatever it was that happened were late opening. The Q to get in was not pleasant at all. I was lucky to be towards the front of that Q so not complaining for myself but after setting my pitch I did walk back to my vehicle past many hundreds of people waiting to get in, the Q went on forever & I felt sorry for those people. That occured with just an hours delay in opening the gate.

the gates are nearly always late opening. There's never any problems from it, people simply wait in the queue until they get to the front of it. Yes, there might be some people moaning about the wait, but that's all it is - moans.

Is it really too much for some people to queue? For any such people the simple things of real life must be incredibly difficult for them.

My concerns in earlier posts were in relation to that experience & I can only forsee with the car park being open all night that this problem could be magnified maybe 10 fold, who knows.

yes, the 'problem' of there being a queue might see that queue being ten times longer.

And? What problem is that? What do you think might happen? What do you think could happen? People will queue, and when they get to the front of the queue they get into the festival. That's it, there's nothing more to it than this (aside perhaps to a bit of moaning).

If you don't want to queue then turn up on the Thursday or Friday.

Something obviously has to change to alleviate the Wed morn traffic problems but I very much hope that due consideration will also be given to those people that pay the money (us punters) and that we are not treated like cattle.

It depends what you mean by "treated like cattle". Having to queue to get in - however long it takes - is not being treated like cattle, it's being treated as respectful human beings.

[paulo999]

Neither of the extremes being painted are at all likely. There won't be a Reading style night of destruction, but neither will it be 100% model citizens.

The festival itself has that reality, and it's why there's the green police and campaigns such as leave no trace. Social pressure helps, but it's not all powerful.

I'm sure the festival will anticipate alot of the problems. Whether their plans will mitigate each and every one isn't really known - not even to them. There's no parallel I can think of in British events, from which to copy best practice.

Overall I think it's a good idea, but there may well be a bit of 'adaptive' management on the night.

[Okky]

There's a guy commenting on the Glastonbury Official Facebook page doing this with full stops...is that you Okky?

C'mon...own up!

[Okky]

Maybe he's sick.with.excitement

It's already been done Okky - long ago.

[eFestivals]

Neither of the extremes being painted are at all likely. There won't be a Reading style night of destruction, but neither will it be 100% model citizens.

The festival itself has that reality, and it's why there's the green police and campaigns such as leave no trace. Social pressure helps, but it's not all powerful.

I'm sure the festival will anticipate alot of the problems. Whether their plans will mitigate each and every one isn't really known - not even to them. There's no parallel I can think of in British events, from which to copy best practice.

Overall I think it's a good idea, but there may well be a bit of 'adaptive' management on the night.

I agree with all of this.

But when you say "neither will it be 100% model citizens", I don't see this as being much more than groups of people occasionally getting a bit too rawkus, with stewards &/or security asking them to calm it down which they're happy to do.

For any not happy to do what is asked of them they'll no doubt be the threat of a sanction of some kind (such as removal from site or worse) which is very likely to do the trick. For those it doesn't do the trick for, the sanctions can be used - it's not like anyone is going to get the better of the security teams (with police backup if needed) is it?

In reality the situation is little different to people being on a standard campsite - which of course don't have nightly riots each night thru the summer.

[Glastoboy]

Judging by Neils vehement defence of this plan, I can only presume he's planning to run the sole all-night-cafe in the car parks that night. Kerching.

[5co77ie]

I didn't realise if granted by Mendip District Council, the licence would cover Glastonbury Festival until 2016.

[fowls]

Yeah, definitely the middle ground, so much of it depends on reputation.

Reading gets trouble because it has a reputation for trouble, and that definitely exacerbates the problem since people who don't liked trouble stop buying tickets and people who do like trouble are more likely to buy tickets. After a few years it becomes an expected thing, after a few more years it's seen as a 'tradition', and then soon after that the kids that go can't even remember a time when there wasn't trouble.

There's no chance that Glasto will ever just explode into trouble since it has a reputation for peace, happiness and dare I say it, pretty 'hippy' ideals. These things are always a progression for year to year, so as long as security keep on top of things and don't let standards slide then there's going to be no problem.

[LusciousLucy]

Bad feelings in a crowd/queue can sometimes be generated by the attitude of the stewards.

Not knowing what is going on is one thing but a bad attitude from a stuck up security guard can cause all manner of problems.

I know that doesnt really go on at Glasto but this will be a first for everyone involved...whatever happens, Tuesday into Wednesday is going to be interesting.

[eFestivals]

Bad feelings in a crowd/queue can sometimes be generated by the attitude of the stewards.

Not knowing what is going on is one thing but a bad attitude from a stuck up security guard can cause all manner of problems.

But where's the scope for it in the queue in reality? It's not like any steward is going to turn the whole queue into a riot.

The only thing stewards would be doing to the queue would be keeping it orderly - making sure that people join the back of the queue rather than pushing in, and perhaps keeping the queue off any access roads that might be in use by vehicles nearby.

It's far more likely that those stewards will receive a bad attitude from some (a small number tho) attendees, who might object to be having to be reasonable because their selfishness has over-ridden their sense.

And if there's a confrontation between a steward and a few people (it won't be more than a few people), what's going to happen? Security would be called to backup that steward, and who is the boss in such a circumstance? Those few attendees, or stewards/security?

Any issues will be dealt with quickly and easily ... unless you think that some arsehole is going to succeed at gee-ing up everyone in the queue (including you) into a mass confrontation with those stewards & security.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

I agree with all of this.

But when you say "neither will it be 100% model citizens", I don't see this as being much more than groups of people occasionally getting a bit too rawkus, with stewards &/or security asking them to calm it down which they're happy to do.

For any not happy to do what is asked of them they'll no doubt be the threat of a sanction of some kind (such as removal from site or worse) which is very likely to do the trick. For those it doesn't do the trick for, the sanctions can be used - it's not like anyone is going to get the better of the security teams (with police backup if needed) is it?

In reality the situation is little different to people being on a standard campsite - which of course don't have nightly riots each night thru the summer.

[eFestivals]

I wonder if the festival has made a guestimate of numbers expected.

I'm thinking that the festival won't go with a guess - it makes getting the right staffing levels extremely difficult, as well as not giving them anyway to recoup the costs to them of opening the car parks early.

So I reckon it's a no-brainer for them to issue "early parking passes" (for a small charge and which won't be issued on the gate if someone arrives without one - no pass, no entry), which:-

- will allow them to have an idea of numbers.

- will help cover the costs.

- will allow some control of people on site who park up early (via the need to have a pass to enter).

- will discourage too many turning up early because they won't want the extra cost &/or hassle of sorting themselves that pass.

[paulo999]

I'm thinking that the festival won't go with a guess - it makes getting the right staffing levels extremely difficult, as well as not giving them anyway to recoup the costs to them of opening the car parks early.

So I reckon it's a no-brainer for them to issue "early parking passes" (for a small charge and which won't be issued on the gate if someone arrives without one - no pass, no entry), which:-

- will allow them to have an idea of numbers.

- will help cover the costs.

- will allow some control of people on site who park up early (via the need to have a pass to enter).

- will discourage too many turning up early because they won't want the extra cost &/or hassle of sorting themselves that pass.