ukslim Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 I thought I'd drag this subject out of the Prodigy thread. Let's have a mass debate! My view is this: You can make fantastic records using sequencers. Translating that into a stage show is challenging to say the least. I saw an act called (I think) Laptop at a pub gig once. It was a bloke hunched over a laptop. No doubt he was triggering and mixing and tweaking, but for all the entertainment it provided, he might as well have put his CD on, then played Minesweeper. Some acts can pull it off. Orbital used to. I have no idea what it was that made it work, but it did. Generally though, it's not interesting to watch, and even when there's a singer or a rapper, it feels like karaoke to me. The next level is taking sequenced music, and performing it live. Get a real drummer to learn your sequenced drum patterns, get a bass player to take over from your sequenced bass patterns, have a keyboardist play your synth riffs. But if they're just trying to make the same sound as your sequenced recording, I'm not sure I see the point. This is how I see The Prodigy. The next level from that is how I see a band like Pendulum - they write their songs with live performance in mind; in the studio the play instruments rather than program patterns. It shows in the music, because it's music that lends itself to live performance. For me though, for a live show I'd always rather see an act that leaves scope for improvisation. I love to see bands who know when a solo's going to end through eye contact, rather than counting the bars. I love to see a band that could play something that's not on the set list, on a whim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyG Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 Sorry, just to make sure I've got the jist of what you're saying, are you putting Pendulum ABOVE Prodigy in the live chain of inspiration? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WS_Jack_III Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 I thought I'd drag this subject out of the Prodigy thread. Let's have a mass debate! My view is this: You can make fantastic records using sequencers. Translating that into a stage show is challenging to say the least. I saw an act called (I think) Laptop at a pub gig once. It was a bloke hunched over a laptop. No doubt he was triggering and mixing and tweaking, but for all the entertainment it provided, he might as well have put his CD on, then played Minesweeper. Some acts can pull it off. Orbital used to. I have no idea what it was that made it work, but it did. Generally though, it's not interesting to watch, and even when there's a singer or a rapper, it feels like karaoke to me. The next level is taking sequenced music, and performing it live. Get a real drummer to learn your sequenced drum patterns, get a bass player to take over from your sequenced bass patterns, have a keyboardist play your synth riffs. But if they're just trying to make the same sound as your sequenced recording, I'm not sure I see the point. This is how I see The Prodigy. The next level from that is how I see a band like Pendulum - they write their songs with live performance in mind; in the studio the play instruments rather than program patterns. It shows in the music, because it's music that lends itself to live performance. For me though, for a live show I'd always rather see an act that leaves scope for improvisation. I love to see bands who know when a solo's going to end through eye contact, rather than counting the bars. I love to see a band that could play something that's not on the set list, on a whim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 (edited) The best dance bands become the best dance bands because they play as live as possible live and they improvise. The best example I can give is when Orbital made their name playing the Other Stage in 95. Legend has it that one of the Hartnolls could hear some distortion so he reached over and turned up what he thought was his headphones to get a better listen and realised to his horror that he was turning the kick drum up to full volume (he said it was like he was watching his hand in slow motion but he couldn’t stop it). Fortunately, when the bass drum completely accidentally started booming out, everyone went completely apeshit, the performance won gig of the year in Q (which isn't exactly Mixmag!) and they’ve never looked back. Edited May 14, 2009 by Homer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyelo Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 The best acts I have ever seen are The Music, Daft Punk, Soulwax, Kasabian and 2manydjs. Don't care how they do it personally, if it's good it's good. End of. When I saw Pendulum they were good but they seemed like they were going through the motions. For me though, for a live show I'd always rather see an act that leaves scope for improvisation. I love to see bands who know when a solo's going to end through eye contact, rather than counting the bars. I love to see a band that could play something that's not on the set list, on a whim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukslim Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 isn't this where the huge light shows and visuals for say the chemical brothers makes it interesting to watch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickenburger Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 obviously this guy was elsewhere during the chemical brothers. check them out on youtube and then decide if electronic music is more or less entertaining then an arm moving up and down a piece of wire in three minute bursts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyG Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 Pendulum are actually very dull live, they just attract fantastic crowds. The best bands I've ever seen live (which doesn't necessarily constitute my favourite gigs by the way) have been Iron Maiden, Muse, Prodigy, Faithless, Metallica, KISS, Jimmy Cliff and Rammstein, which has all come from a combination of energy, how well the songs came across live and/or stage shows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rfs Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 For me though, for a live show I'd always rather see an act that leaves scope for improvisation. I love to see bands who know when a solo's going to end through eye contact, rather than counting the bars. I love to see a band that could play something that's not on the set list, on a whim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig_G Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 To throw some things in here - for the large part (exclusing the likes of masters such as Pink Floyd), guitar bands (by which I really mean inidie bands) don't have the understanding of rhythm, structure, synthesis, texture, dynamics, progression or style from other genres. *I'm not an indie hater btw! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig_G Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 The best bands I've ever seen live (which doesn't necessarily constitute my favourite gigs by the way) have been Iron Maiden, Muse, Prodigy, Faithless, Metallica, KISS, Jimmy Cliff and Rammstein, which has all come from a combination of energy, how well the songs came across live and/or stage shows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukslim Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 I think it's more about making something sound spontaneous, and while that includes impro, you can also get it from something that has been rehearsed to death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig_G Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 To be fair, a lot of live dance bands re-work tracks live these days. It's not like the "old days" where everything was pre-programmed so you just hit a key on your keyboard to trigger another loop. I know a few people who do live sets and can re-work a tune live just as well as any live band jamming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukslim Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 To throw some things in here - for the large part (exclusing the likes of masters such as Pink Floyd), guitar bands (by which I really mean inidie bands) don't have the understanding of rhythm, structure, synthesis, texture, dynamics, progression or style from other genres. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinhead Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 I'll always find it hard to compare the skill of digital electronic music to those produced from analogue instruments. For sure the both require musical creativity, but ability - music produced by an ever increasing array of intelligent computer programs is becoming less of a skill and more of a programming excercise. It takes years of practice to learn how to manipulate a guitar, keyboard or wind instrument - that's what always impresses me. The PC should be one of the instruments, not a substitute for all of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tylerdurden Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 Liam Howlett is an immensely skilled musician either way you look at it, Can't remember The Prodigys live drummers name, but hes bloody brilliant too, They're songs are unreal, played just right, re-worked for the live environment and Keith and Maxim do their jobs well I think. They better f**king play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 isn't this where the huge light shows and visuals for say the chemical brothers makes it interesting to watch? it might be interesting to watch (particularly the chems, my nieces used to be a part of their visuals, the ones used at Glasto 2000 ), but you might as well stick the CD on to those visuals for all the 'liveness' (eg: none) going on on stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig_G Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 It takes years of practice to learn how to manipulate a guitar, keyboard or wind instrument - that's what always impresses me. The PC should be one of the instruments, not a substitute for all of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m_bantam Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 The best gigs I've ever been to are the ones that I've either jumped around like crazy (RATM, Metallica) or danced around like crazy (dreadzone (last wk in manc-amazing btw!!), faithless, kasabian, underworld) so either way, to me it doesn't matter! instruments or not as long as I'm moving...generally I'm enjoying myself! I watched a bit of one big weekend on BBC redbutton yesterday and watching franz ferdinand, I found really boring, exactly as I did for 20mins last year at the park...everybody was so still!! (That being said...spiritualized I enjoyed loads last year(or year before whenever it was) at the JPS was amazing too! neither jumpy or dancey act!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 It takes years to master production and I wish I could produce sounds like Liam Howlett for example. And electronic music doesn't come from just a computer. Serious producers use VSTs alongside, moogs, 303, 909s and a huge array of synthesizers - each with their own charachteristics. There's certainly huge skill to producing an excellent programmed dance track, and I love a great dance track. But 'live' (), so very many dance acts are doing absolutely nothing - they might as well have not bothered turning up in person, and just posted their CD to the stage. Unless wiped with recreationals, there's little to point to seeing such a band. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukslim Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 It takes years to master production and I wish I could produce sounds like Liam Howlett for example. And electronic music doesn't come from just a computer. Serious producers use VSTs alongside, moogs, 303, 909s and a huge array of synthesizers - each with their own charachteristics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToxicJesus Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 I think it's strange that people bring up the idea of this natural evolving flow of a set as a positive of guitar based music. One thing I find quite strange about 'band' shows is that the performers are limited to their back catalogue and quite often a very small selection of songs which they have to perform whether they're feeling the song on that day or not. It must be hard for someone like Damien Rice for example to get into those kind of melancholy mindframes for 10 nights in a row on a tour or still feel miserable when he's playing to thousands of people at Glastonbury or wherever. DJs on the other hand can play any record they have in their collection to express their own current mood, the mood of the show, the feeling of the crowd etc. As for improvised bits and the altering of tracks, it's the same for both genres, some bands are very experimental with their songs (many of whom get panned for such things!) and others are very faithful to the recordings, the same's true with electronic music. I do agree that occasionally an electronic show can lack a bit visually, and often lightshows are neccessary. The same's true of guitar bands though, for every performer it's impossible to take your eyes off there's some dullards who just stand there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedmills Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 it might be interesting to watch (particularly the chems, my nieces used to be a part of their visuals, the ones used at Glasto 2000 ), but you might as well stick the CD on to those visuals for all the 'liveness' (eg: none) going on on stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TG24 Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 Liam Howlett is an immensely skilled musician either way you look at it, Can't remember The Prodigys live drummers name, but hes bloody brilliant too, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinhead Posted May 14, 2009 Report Share Posted May 14, 2009 It takes years to master production and I wish I could produce sounds like Liam Howlett for example. And electronic music doesn't come from just a computer. Serious producers use VSTs alongside, moogs, 303, 909s and a huge array of synthesizers - each with their own charachteristics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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