Football 2023/24

[Neil]

1 hour ago, kaosmark2 said:

I agree with most of this, but isn't there a thing about a bonus payment to Chelsea if Hall plays too many games? Am I imagining that? Though you'd have thought that now is the time to play him if ever.

I think it's hard to say we needed a right-winger more than left-winger in the summer. Gordon's form was sketchy Jan-June and Almiron was just utterly brilliant in that period. Given that Barnes can play right wing as well as left, it felt like a reasonable choice at the time. 

Up front, surely there's a case to recall that Aussie striker we've got out on loan somewhere? There's been a few 17-21 year olds we've signed and loaned out and maybe the FFP solution is to play some of them.

surely you've got all the right wing you need with saudi being the owners??

[Neil]

ten Hag

Quote

 he cannot use injuries as an excuse

while he uses injuries as an excuse

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/67850900

[charlierc]

11 hours ago, kaosmark2 said:

I agree with most of this, but isn't there a thing about a bonus payment to Chelsea if Hall plays too many games? Am I imagining that? Though you'd have thought that now is the time to play him if ever.

I think it's hard to say we needed a right-winger more than left-winger in the summer. Gordon's form was sketchy Jan-June and Almiron was just utterly brilliant in that period. Given that Barnes can play right wing as well as left, it felt like a reasonable choice at the time. 

Up front, surely there's a case to recall that Aussie striker we've got out on loan somewhere? There's been a few 17-21 year olds we've signed and loaned out and maybe the FFP solution is to play some of them.

The deal to sign Lewis Hall was loan with obligation to buy and extra add-ons. So I'm not 100% sure what the mechanics are. It is possible that there is such a clause, but equally, he seems to have really fallen out of favour since having difficulties against Dortmund & Bournemouth. Even though, unlike various others, he's been fit.

The one that's a bummer is Minteh, who has been in great form for Feyernoord and can play wide right but where his deal with them has no recall clause. I don't know if Garang Kuol has a similar clause in his deal.

In terms of the wings, I recall last season we had a great sync of Willock on the left side of CM and Joelinton in the LW spot, and obviously there was a squad space there given Saint-Maximin was sold off (baggage that came with selling him to a PiF-owned Saudi club or otherwise). Obviously we weren't to know Barnes would get an injury that would prove difficult to shake, or that Joelinton would have to play further back in CM to cover for Willock's injuries and Tonali's absence. Gordon has unquestionably improved this season compared to his Jan-Jun form, and both he & Barnes are meant to be able to play right as well. I think at the moment I'd say with Almiron looking spent and Murphy having injury problems, an RW is something worth looking into.

I'm not 100% sure about Kalvin Phillips, who is the name being frequently mentioned as a Newcastle signing. But I guess it depends on what we think we need from a CDM. I thought we were looking for an aggressive midfield destroyer whereas Phillips, from what I heard of his best work at Leeds, is more of a Pirlo-style deep-lying playmaker, which in fairness can be useful, but I'm not sure if he's aggressive enough.

[charlierc]

9 hours ago, Neil said:

surely you've got all the right wing you need with saudi being the owners??

Or that one of the Reuben brothers that own 10% of the club is a Tory Party donor. Something I tend to forget about but isn't exactly something a lot of us are keen to shout about.

Certainly a contrast to Southampton boss Russell Martin saying in a press conference that he blanked noted Saints fan Rishi Sunak when he wanted to meet the team after seeing their game against Plymouth the other night.

[kaosmark2]

6 hours ago, charlierc said:

The deal to sign Lewis Hall was loan with obligation to buy and extra add-ons. So I'm not 100% sure what the mechanics are. It is possible that there is such a clause, but equally, he seems to have really fallen out of favour since having difficulties against Dortmund & Bournemouth. Even though, unlike various others, he's been fit.

The one that's a bummer is Minteh, who has been in great form for Feyernoord and can play wide right but where his deal with them has no recall clause. I don't know if Garang Kuol has a similar clause in his deal.

In terms of the wings, I recall last season we had a great sync of Willock on the left side of CM and Joelinton in the LW spot, and obviously there was a squad space there given Saint-Maximin was sold off (baggage that came with selling him to a PiF-owned Saudi club or otherwise). Obviously we weren't to know Barnes would get an injury that would prove difficult to shake, or that Joelinton would have to play further back in CM to cover for Willock's injuries and Tonali's absence. Gordon has unquestionably improved this season compared to his Jan-Jun form, and both he & Barnes are meant to be able to play right as well. I think at the moment I'd say with Almiron looking spent and Murphy having injury problems, an RW is something worth looking into.

I'm not 100% sure about Kalvin Phillips, who is the name being frequently mentioned as a Newcastle signing. But I guess it depends on what we think we need from a CDM. I thought we were looking for an aggressive midfield destroyer whereas Phillips, from what I heard of his best work at Leeds, is more of a Pirlo-style deep-lying playmaker, which in fairness can be useful, but I'm not sure if he's aggressive enough.

Maybe it's less that Howe doesn't rate him but thinks it's better for his development to not play? But that feels brutal on Trippier who clearly just needs 10/14 days rest.

He's the other one I was thinking of! Not even a specific January date recall clause? Bummer. I'd kinda like to recall at least one of those two.

I still can't work out Joelinton's best position tbh. I think his best games have come from CM but as you say, he's combined really well with Willock as a deeper LW player. I'd also rarely pick him LW if we had a fully fit forward line (putting Isak/Gordon there).

I'd be okay with Kalvin Phillips if at a good price. I suspect he'd cost too much (wages as well as price tag), and is a little too similar to Longstaff. A loan with an agreed price tag to buy would be nice but hard to see City accepting that.

[Neil]

7 hours ago, kaosmark2 said:

I'd be okay with Kalvin Phillips if at a good price.

the only good price for KP would be free. he's a prem underperformer.

[thetime]

Kalvin Phillips needs to get out of City as quickly as possible. His career is going down the toilet at city. 

Following a path Jack Rodwell made, also Ross Barkley and Danny Drinkwater at Chelsea. 

[charlierc]

1 hour ago, thetime said:

Kalvin Phillips needs to get out of City as quickly as possible. His career is going down the toilet at city. 

Following a path Jack Rodwell made, also Ross Barkley and Danny Drinkwater at Chelsea. 

Agreed. Whatever worked at Leeds under Bielsa to turn Phillips into an England starter and be worthy of that move has just not worked at Man City, and it's all just going down the toilet there.

The question imo is what team would be the right one for him to get regular game time.

[charlierc]

19 hours ago, kaosmark2 said:

Maybe it's less that Howe doesn't rate him but thinks it's better for his development to not play? But that feels brutal on Trippier who clearly just needs 10/14 days rest.

He's the other one I was thinking of! Not even a specific January date recall clause? Bummer. I'd kinda like to recall at least one of those two.

I still can't work out Joelinton's best position tbh. I think his best games have come from CM but as you say, he's combined really well with Willock as a deeper LW player. I'd also rarely pick him LW if we had a fully fit forward line (putting Isak/Gordon there).

I'd be okay with Kalvin Phillips if at a good price. I suspect he'd cost too much (wages as well as price tag), and is a little too similar to Longstaff. A loan with an agreed price tag to buy would be nice but hard to see City accepting that.

Possibly - I know Howe mentioned that he wants to manage Lewis Miley's minutes, which is understandable given he's still only 17, but the injuries had with Longstaff, Willock and Anderson (plus Tonali) reduced the scope for that. And yeah Trippier looked frazzled as December wore on, so having the option to rest him but insisting he play all the time anyway felt counter-productive.

I think Gordon now has the LW on lock so Joelinton back into CM seems to have been the way we're doing things at present, especially with Willock injured. Certainly it would've been nicer to have the problem of trying to juggle them all.

I heard a really large fee for Kalvin Phillips suggested which made me wonder if it's such a good idea, to say nothing of my previously expressed view that I think we need a more aggressive CDM than he is. Fulham's Joao Palhina, imo, would be a good idea, though I'd imagine they'd want a f**k-ton of cash. Similar with Forest for Ibrahim Sangare as I thought he played well against us, though I think FIFA rules means he couldn't be signed this window due to not being allowed to play for 3 clubs in a season.

[thetime]

1 minute ago, charlierc said:

Agreed. Whatever worked at Leeds under Bielsa to turn Phillips into an England starter and be worthy of that move has just not worked at Man City, and it's all just going down the toilet there.

The question imo is what team would be the right one for him to get regular game time.

A West Ham, Wolves, Everton sort of level I would say. A team that is a solid premier league side with good traditions, he is not on super high wages about £150k per week. Depends if he wants to stick it out at City as he has 4 more years on his contract. I don't see it as an upgrade for Newcastle to be honest. 

City took a punt on him, they can afford for it to fail. I don't think Newcastle can with the current FFP situation. 

[kaosmark2]

14 hours ago, Neil said:

the only good price for KP would be free. he's a prem underperformer.

Pep has publicly said that he's failed him as a manager and that he thinks Phillips is better than he's managed to get out of him at City. I definitely think there's prices he'd be worth a punt at.

[kaosmark2]

1 hour ago, charlierc said:

Possibly - I know Howe mentioned that he wants to manage Lewis Miley's minutes, which is understandable given he's still only 17, but the injuries had with Longstaff, Willock and Anderson (plus Tonali) reduced the scope for that. And yeah Trippier looked frazzled as December wore on, so having the option to rest him but insisting he play all the time anyway felt counter-productive.

I think Gordon now has the LW on lock so Joelinton back into CM seems to have been the way we're doing things at present, especially with Willock injured. Certainly it would've been nicer to have the problem of trying to juggle them all.

I heard a really large fee for Kalvin Phillips suggested which made me wonder if it's such a good idea, to say nothing of my previously expressed view that I think we need a more aggressive CDM than he is. Fulham's Joao Palhina, imo, would be a good idea, though I'd imagine they'd want a f**k-ton of cash. Similar with Forest for Ibrahim Sangare as I thought he played well against us, though I think FIFA rules means he couldn't be signed this window due to not being allowed to play for 3 clubs in a season.

I definitely find it a little odd.

Yeah, hard not to consider Gordon first choice now, but having rotation flexibility would be nice. Just needs a deeper squad tbh.

I guess we'll see who we end up signing. Phillips for a large fee definitely seems a bad idea, on the cheap could be okay. I can't see the others working out unless there's some shithousery around FFP.

[Neil]

glad that Aldershot  beat Woking today, i used to work with a lot of Woking fans in Walton -on -Thames.

[Ryan1984]

1 hour ago, Neil said:

glad that Aldershot  beat Woking today, i used to work with a lot of Woking fans in Walton -on -Thames.

Sets up the trip to the Hawthorns next week perfectly!

[Ryan1984]

5 hours ago, thetime said:

A West Ham, Wolves, Everton sort of level I would say. A team that is a solid premier league side with good traditions, he is not on super high wages about £150k per week. Depends if he wants to stick it out at City as he has 4 more years on his contract. I don't see it as an upgrade for Newcastle to be honest. 

City took a punt on him, they can afford for it to fail. I don't think Newcastle can with the current FFP situation. 

Would Villa maybe be an option or could he disrupt too much of a good thing?

[charlierc]

25 minutes ago, Ryan1984 said:

Would Villa maybe be an option or could he disrupt too much of a good thing?

I think Villa are set for midfielders. I can't speak for them as not a Villa fan but I think the main issue is what is their depth if Ollie Watkins gets injured. Plus as they're already without Buendia and Mings through long-term injury that they can't really afford more absences in the CB or wing positions.

[charlierc]

4 hours ago, kaosmark2 said:

I definitely find it a little odd.

Yeah, hard not to consider Gordon first choice now, but having rotation flexibility would be nice. Just needs a deeper squad tbh.

I guess we'll see who we end up signing. Phillips for a large fee definitely seems a bad idea, on the cheap could be okay. I can't see the others working out unless there's some shithousery around FFP.

Tbf we do have depth, it's just they all got injured. It certainly hints at evolution we still have to go through if our only senior options in some games in this run were Paul Dummett and Matt Ritchie, neither of whom are exactly starters or likely to stick around when their contracts expire at the end of the season (least I think that's how long they've both still got on our books).

You'd think tbf that Chelsea keep finding ways to game FFP to facilitate their mad business plan to spend their way to success that there might be some tactic. But yeah - it's likely that we're going to need to be intelligent with our signings if, as figures connected with NUFC keep saying, we're FFP marginal.

[thetime]

2 hours ago, Ryan1984 said:

Would Villa maybe be an option or could he disrupt too much of a good thing?

Just using villa as they type of club he could go for, the size and tradition. Same goes for Everton and West Ham. 

 

[charlierc]

Expectations low ahead of yesterday, and they were duly met. That second Liverpool penalty was a comically poor decision, but can't obscure the fact the defence were just so bad at stopping them create chances. The two things can co-exist - the way they did it was unjust, but they probably would've found another way anyway.

Roll on the derby then. Or not.

[charlierc]

On 1/1/2024 at 8:11 PM, thetime said:

Just using villa as they type of club he could go for, the size and tradition. Same goes for Everton and West Ham. 

I guess it depends which team is most in the need for a player with his skillset. I'm not sure either one is West Ham or Villa though - both seem quite settled with their midfields. 

Maybe Chelsea if they're mad enough to sell Gallagher?

[balti-pie]

18 hours ago, charlierc said:

 

Roll on the derby then. Or not.

As a complete neutral, i cant wait to watch it 😄 there's just so much potential entertainment, whether it be newcastle hilariously humbled or home crowd devastated and in tears by being humped by their hated rivals. I just want an absolute bloodbath to be honest! Other local derbies are always entertaining, because i just cant understand how anyone can hate Sunderland. Or Newcastle, for that matter. Both amiable enough clubs, in my experience anyways. Its like Ipswich v Norwich, how is that a derby, they're both quite adorable! 

(But equally i suppose neutrals can look at the north london derby and have a soft spot for arsenal, which is ridiculous: they're a despicable entity from top to bottom, and have been for every single second of their existence 😃)

[charlierc]

3 hours ago, balti-pie said:

As a complete neutral, i cant wait to watch it 😄 there's just so much potential entertainment, whether it be newcastle hilariously humbled or home crowd devastated and in tears by being humped by their hated rivals. I just want an absolute bloodbath to be honest! Other local derbies are always entertaining, because i just cant understand how anyone can hate Sunderland. Or Newcastle, for that matter. Both amiable enough clubs, in my experience anyways. Its like Ipswich v Norwich, how is that a derby, they're both quite adorable! 

(But equally i suppose neutrals can look at the north london derby and have a soft spot for arsenal, which is ridiculous: they're a despicable entity from top to bottom, and have been for every single second of their existence 😃)

Being someone born/living down south means in theory I shouldn't have that much disdain for Sunderland but it is easy to get swept up in that stuff. Especially given how annoying their fans get around derby day with constant Tweets/FB posts about trying to beat us, to the fact our record against them up to and including our most recent face-off in 2016 was abysmal (9 games without winning, including losing 6 in a row). I cannot say I've missed and certainly don't feel confident given our awful form in the last month and the fact we've been dumped out of the FA Cup by League One teams in the last 2 seasons.

It could just be one of those games where it's more fun to be a neutral looking at the bunfight than being involved. Similar to how I think of the Merseyside, North London or Glasgow derbies, for example.

Edited January 3, 2024 by charlierc

[Neil]

On 1/1/2024 at 6:08 PM, Ryan1984 said:

Sets up the trip to the Hawthorns next week perfectly!

looking forwards to it, just seen the match is on iplayer.

friend of my wife's is a programme seller at the hawthorns so will ask him to grab me one.

[charlierc]

On 1/3/2024 at 4:03 PM, balti-pie said:

As a complete neutral, i cant wait to watch it 😄 there's just so much potential entertainment, whether it be newcastle hilariously humbled or home crowd devastated and in tears by being humped by their hated rivals. I just want an absolute bloodbath to be honest! Other local derbies are always entertaining, because i just cant understand how anyone can hate Sunderland. Or Newcastle, for that matter. Both amiable enough clubs, in my experience anyways. Its like Ipswich v Norwich, how is that a derby, they're both quite adorable! 

(But equally i suppose neutrals can look at the north london derby and have a soft spot for arsenal, which is ridiculous: they're a despicable entity from top to bottom, and have been for every single second of their existence 😃)

Though if nothing else I'm impressed somebody in Sunderland's ecosystem thought this welcome party for Newcastle fans that bought a box in a usual home end was good idea:

 

[Neil]

6 hours ago, Neil said:

looking forwards to it, just seen the match is on iplayer.

friend of my wife's is a programme seller at the hawthorns so will ask him to grab me one.

He's gonna post me one