news & politics:discussion

[steviewevie]

5 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

How can labour work for peace in the opposition, as the opposition party they have no sway. If they get in to power they will have a tiny bit of sway, but not much.

sure...but this is obviously a difficult situation for Labour...and eventually they will probably be in power and will have to have positions on international stuff that will likely become more chaotic and messy. In the end though with this issue the actual power and influence lies with US and countries in that region.

[Crazyfool01]

14 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

How can labour work for peace in the opposition, as the opposition party they have no sway. If they get in to power they will have a tiny bit of sway, but not much.

they can at least state that's what they would do .. and  ideally from the start . when it was pretty obvious what would happen 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Crazyfool01

[steviewevie]

but actually Britain does bear some responsibilty in the creation of the state of Israel...even if no one gives an actual sh*t what we think anymore...

[cellar]

1 hour ago, Crazyfool01 said:

I really think Labour need to start distancing themselves now they are backing war crimes , it's appalling . It's absolutely time for Starmer to show a distinction from the Torys even if it loses him votes and why should it ? surely the majority want a peaceful solution and not more barbaric action from both sides . It's a conflict elsewhere but would it have an impact here in 12 months time ? 

They shouldn't have been supporting Israel in the first place - but this is the price we have to pay for Labour winning an election, apparently.

If it wasn't so awful it would be laughable.

[Crazyfool01]

1 minute ago, cellar said:

They shouldn't have been supporting Israel in the first place - but this is the price we have to pay for Labour winning an election, apparently.

If it wasn't so awful it would be laughable.

I wonder how support works out in the uk ? ive no idea but surely the appetite for war / war crimes is low 

[Ozanne]

8 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

sure...but this is obviously a difficult situation for Labour...and eventually they will probably be in power and will have to have positions on international stuff that will likely become more chaotic and messy. In the end though with this issue the actual power and influence lies with US and countries in that region.

Of course Labour will have policy but they don’t have to say what they would do now, there’s little point as the situation could’ve changed drastically in the next few months. They can put pressure on the government which they have been doing to be fair to them.

They will support a sovereign state like Israel after a terrorist attack and they aren’t going to support Hamas, a terrorist organisation. 

[Crazyfool01]

Meanwhile was camilla at the Abba party ? 

[Crazyfool01]

Just now, Ozanne said:

Of course Labour will have policy but they don’t have to say what they would do now, there’s little point as the situation could’ve changed drastically in the next few months. They can put pressure on the government which they have been doing to be fair to them.

They will support a sovereign state like Israel after a terrorist attack and they aren’t going to support Hamas, a terrorist organisation. 

Honestly could you not see a war crime happening in front of you straight off ? 

[cellar]

9 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

I wonder how support works out in the uk ? ive no idea but surely the appetite for war / war crimes is low 

I think before all of this I would have expected more support for Palestine, but not so sure now. Although I do feel like there is a lot of media frenzy going on - a fair few people that I know can see that Israel is committing war crimes, even if they haven't necessarily been aware of the situation in the past.

[Crazyfool01]

1 minute ago, cellar said:

I think before all of this I would have expected more support for Palestine, but not so sure now. Although I do feel like there is a lot of media frenzy going on - a fair few people that I know can see that Israel is committing war crimes, even if they haven't necessarily been aware of the situation in the past.

tbh I didn't really know too much about the situation and its complexities until the latest issues so am a bit on catchup on it  Its just horrendous and I hope something stops them invading , its not going to work out for anyone so just utterly pointless bloodshed 

[steviewevie]

1 minute ago, Crazyfool01 said:

tbh I didn't really know too much about the situation and its complexities until the latest issues so am a bit on catchup on it  Its just horrendous and I hope something stops them invading , its not going to work out for anyone so just utterly pointless bloodshed 

seems that people just take positions and ignore anything horrid from the other side. But surely no one can ignore, or even celebrate,  what Hamas did last weekend. 

[Crazyfool01]

2 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

seems that people just take positions and ignore anything horrid from the other side. But surely no one can ignore, or even celebrate,  what Hamas did last weekend. 

agree of course 

[steviewevie]

We can argue to the end of times about the existence of Israel, but it is not going away no matter how many desire it. So what is needed is a viable Palestine state with governance that doesn't want to destroy Israel. The best would be the original partition borders from 1947...but that is probably never ever going to happen. Maybe they will all just end up just killing each other completely...because no middle ground or compromise can ever be found. 

[pink_triangle]

34 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

sure...but this is obviously a difficult situation for Labour...and eventually they will probably be in power and will have to have positions on international stuff that will likely become more chaotic and messy. In the end though with this issue the actual power and influence lies with US and countries in that region.

I am sure in power they will be involved in diplomacy. However some people have this need to see everything on twitter, many of these talks will be done behind closed doors. As you say what labour say in public will make no difference if it’s the opposite to the USA.

[steviewevie]

The problem is the extremists have taken over both sides...and it just spirals and spirals and the hatred grows exponentially. I really think international bodies need to take over...Egypt, Jordan and US maybe. Otherwise they really will just end up destroying each other.

[cellar]

6 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

seems that people just take positions and ignore anything horrid from the other side. But surely no one can ignore, or even celebrate,  what Hamas did last weekend. 

I think you keep pushing for this stance to try to draw people into an argument on your own terms, because you realise its impossible to defend Israels actions over the last 50 years. I don't think anyone on this thread has celebrated what Hamas did though - unless you can provide an example?

[steviewevie]

The whole thing is so f**king depressing. I know squirrel got criticised for putting it down to fairy tale religious differences...but at a real high level this is so true...the dna of these people is basically the same...it is so f**king stupid and medieval. Humans are f**ked. It goes on and on and on. I swear to god we are heading to WW3...I used to think this was ridiculous, end of history and all that, but we are heading that way. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by steviewevie

[steviewevie]

6 minutes ago, cellar said:

I think you keep pushing for this stance to try to draw people into an argument on your own terms, because you realise its impossible to defend Israels actions over the last 50 years. I don't think anyone on this thread has celebrated what Hamas did though - unless you can provide an example?

no, but there doesn't seem to be an understanding that Israel were bound to retaliate. But instead it is all just Israel at fault for everything...and that is it...

[pink_triangle]

39 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

they can at least state that's what they would do .. and  ideally from the start . when it was pretty obvious what would happen 

I want to see less people dieing from both sides . I am not pro or anti Israel or Palestine. I am just anti needless death.

Unfortunately needless death has resulted in more needless death and that will continue. The question is how can we reduce (as we won’t stop ) these needless deaths and what measures can we put in the future to make them less likely.

I think if Starmer/labour made the statement you would like him to make, it wouldn’t save a single life. I doubt most in the region even know who he is. It would however split the Labour Party and potentially impact on the next election. If I thought Starmer had the influence to save loads of lives then maybe that’s worth it. Unfortunately i don’t believe he has that influence.

So we are left with the generic position Israel has a right to defend, but needs to stay within international law. We can only hope those who do have influence can sort this out.

 

[cellar]

Well yes we agree that it is depressing. And I think putting it down to fairy tales is reductive, and I've just heard it a lot. But I meant no offense to squirrel, I think they're a good poster.

It's just not one of those "both sides have their reasons" justifications. Both sides may have their reasons, but Israels methods over the years have been horrific. That's what should be focused on (I believe).

[cellar]

And yes of course what Hamas has done is horrific. But that doesn't excuse what Israel has done over the years.

[steviewevie]

3 minutes ago, cellar said:

 

It's just not one of those "both sides have their reasons" justifications. Both sides may have their reasons, but Israels methods over the years have been horrific. That's what should be focused on (I believe).

and ignore what Hamas did?

[Crazyfool01]

3 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I want to see less people dieing from both sides . I am not pro or anti Israel or Palestine. I am just anti needless death.

Unfortunately needless death has resulted in more needless death and that will continue. The question is how can we reduce (as we won’t stop ) these needless deaths and what measures can we put in the future to make them less likely.

I think if Starmer/labour made the statement you would like him to make, it wouldn’t save a single life. I doubt most in the region even know who he is. It would however split the Labour Party and potentially impact on the next election. If I thought Starmer had the influence to save loads of lives then maybe that’s worth it. Unfortunately i don’t believe he has that influence.

So we are left with the generic position Israel has a right to defend, but needs to stay within international law. We can only hope those who do have influence can sort this out.

 

we put so much on one side being right when actually we need to criticise both sides , its interesting to see the stances now starting to be rolled back . Starmer is fortunate at this point hes not PM and it's Sunak that is being pressed from within his own party about the war crimes . If he were PM this could easily be his Blair Iraq moment which for me Blair was lucky to escape . These days of social media is all there in black and white 

[Crazyfool01]

6 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

and ignore what Hamas did?

 

9 minutes ago, cellar said:

And yes of course what Hamas has done is horrific. But that doesn't excuse what Israel has done over the years.

 

[steviewevie]

5 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

we put so much on one side being right when actually we need to criticise both sides , its interesting to see the stances now starting to be rolled back . Starmer is fortunate at this point hes not PM and it's Sunak that is being pressed from within his own party about the war crimes . If he were PM this could easily be his Blair Iraq moment which for me Blair was lucky to escape . These days of social media is all there in black and white 

Not sure about comparing to Blair and Iraq. There was world wide sympathy for Israel after those grotesque attacks by Hamas, but now the resulting disaster in Gaza is becoming the focus and countries will distance themselves from Israel action and call for restraint. It doesn't change the original revulsion.

Blair/Iraq was different. He took us into an invasion risking british lives and with suspect reason.