news & politics:discussion

[Guest]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

ok...err..don't know...what are their policies again? Their main one is this Green investment thingy, and I guess not u-turned but definitely getting watered down, well the amount is anyway. So, ok, maybe no actual u-turns, but Starmer does have a u-turny reputation after ditching most of his leadership bid promises, Tories use it to attack him, flip-flops etc; and the left feel they haven't got much to hold onto except maybe this invest in green stuff and want to see him stick to it. Again, they should have never come up with the number, don't pledge stuff you can't provide, like Rishi and his stop the boats thing.

The media are the ones that ask the questions about where will the money be coming from. We all know this it shouldn’t be a shock that Labour have to cost everything.

What part of the green policy have they watered down?

[steviewevie]

9 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

The media are the ones that ask the questions about where will the money be coming from. We all know this it shouldn’t be a shock that Labour have to cost everything.

What part of the green policy have they watered down?

the amount being invested. They said 28bill from start, then 28bill by end of parliament, and now looks like they're going to ditch the 28bill altogether.

[steviewevie]

...although...

 

[steviewevie]

[steviewevie]

they're obviously pleased with his soldier cosplay pics.

 

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

the amount being invested. They said 28bill from start, then 28bill by end of parliament, and now looks like they're going to ditch the 28bill altogether.

Thats not a watering down, £28b will still be spent and all main parts of the policy remain in tact. We had this exact same discussion in November and Labour came out and rubbished it then as well. 

[kalifire]

It's savvy politics to try and eliminate the lies/fear-based smears the Tories will reduce themselves to in order to try and cling to power. We all saw how low they went to smear Corbyn, and they'd absolutely do the same again with Starmer.

To enter the race with a manifesto promising huge spending on divisive issues (crazy to think environmental protection is one, but here we are) would be a mistake. It's a fine line between being progressive and letting the Tories dictate the narrative with the 'radical/loony left' stuff.

If a mistake has been made, it's Starmer and his team firing off numbers too early, and having to backtrack when they realised just what a shitshow they'll inherit.

[steviewevie]

8 minutes ago, kalifire said:

It's savvy politics to try and eliminate the lies/fear-based smears the Tories will reduce themselves to in order to try and cling to power. We all saw how low they went to smear Corbyn, and they'd absolutely do the same again with Starmer.

To enter the race with a manifesto promising huge spending on divisive issues (crazy to think environmental protection is one, but here we are) would be a mistake. It's a fine line between being progressive and letting the Tories dictate the narrative with the 'radical/loony left' stuff.

If a mistake has been made, it's Starmer and his team firing off numbers too early, and having to backtrack when they realised just what a shitshow they'll inherit.

yeah, it's that last bit...I think they came out with that number when they didn't think they'd actually get into power.

Saw this from IFS blokey about the investment thingy..

A look under the hood of Labour’s investment plans | Institute for Fiscal Studies (ifs.org.uk)

[Skip997]

And so everyone continues to count the pennies as the world burns 

[Neil]

4 hours ago, kalifire said:

We all saw how low they went to smear Corbyn

how terrible smearing corbyn with the truth.

[steviewevie]

 

[Neil]

2 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

 

the biggest difference between the tories an the new labour govt will be the number of sex pests.

[Neil]

7 hours ago, kalifire said:

It's savvy politics to try and eliminate the lies/fear-based smears the Tories will reduce themselves to in order to try and cling to power. We all saw how low they went to smear Corbyn, and they'd absolutely do the same again with Starmer.

how the press treated corbyn was predictable from before he was elected leader and was why he was always a bad choice for leader, the error was in the minds of every supporter who didn't realise these things

[kalifire]

7 hours ago, Barry Fish said:

I posted about Hamas not releasing hostages.  That was YOUR opportunity to deal with that in isolation.  Instead you performed what you just accused me of doing.  It really is awful when people can't call Hamas for what they are and instead performance a stunt like whataboutery.
 

Nothing there is happening in isolation, and it's absurdly simplistic to treat it as such. What Hamas have done and are doing is completely f**ked. What Israel are doing is also completely f**ked. The wider context to the entire situation is Israel's illegal occupation of the West Bank, which is completely f**ked. Nobody comes out of this as winners.

[steviewevie]

8 hours ago, kalifire said:

Nothing there is happening in isolation, and it's absurdly simplistic to treat it as such. What Hamas have done and are doing is completely f**ked. What Israel are doing is also completely f**ked. The wider context to the entire situation is Israel's illegal occupation of the West Bank, which is completely f**ked. Nobody comes out of this as winners.

Taking this conflict in isolation yes what Israel is doing is barbaric and looks like genocide/democide and it needs to stop, and what Hamas did on Oct 7th was also barbaric...but one side not caring about the other side's lives is not unusual. But Hamas must have known that Israel would respond like this, and even after this onslaught the fact that they still won't surrender and hand over hostages which would help bring about a ceasefire shows that they don't care about their own people, and that makes them the biggest c**ts in my eyes. 

Bigger picture though is more complicated!

[Skip997]

9 hours ago, kalifire said:

The wider context to the entire situation is Israel's illegal occupation of the West Bank, which is completely f*cked.

Something the “international community” should be doing something about, and not just passing resolutions which Israel will ignore.

[Skip997]

2 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

And do you agree they also shouldn't be funding Hamas as well ?  Something you ignore.

Also they shouldn't be protecting there leaders.  Another thing you ignore 

If they actually properly defended and supported Palestine (the general population) and stopped giving Israel free reign to do whatever they want. Including insisting on and enforcing the”two state” solution with proper freedom for Palestinians.

[Skip997]

16 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Or are you saying they should endorce the two state solution?  we might have some agreement if so

 

Not sure if you meant to type enforce or endorse.

The “international community” should definitely enforce the two state solution. If that occurred it may well be easier to go after Hamas, as their support among Palestinians would probably drop.

[steviewevie]

1 minute ago, Skip997 said:

Not sure if you meant to type enforce or endorse.

The “international community” should definitely enforce the two state solution. If that occurred it may well be easier to go after Hamas, as their support among Palestinians would probably drop.

I think Egypt, Jordan, other Arab countries should take over running and rebuilding of Gaza and maybe West Bank until PLA can run itself, and then all sides pressured into 2 state solution via sanctions/aid/bribes. Main thing is autonomy for Palestine, security for Israel. Getting settlers out of West Bank will be difficult for Israel, but they should definitely stop their expansion, and maybe those settlers who are there could stay but accept they are part of Palestine and maybe even contribute to the state they live in.

[kalifire]

1 hour ago, Barry Fish said:

Just call them out for the terrorists c**ts they are without whataboutery.

Dear Barry,

Happy Christmas! 

Hamas are a mob of terrorist c**ts who are in no way justified for their barbaric actions. 

All the best for 2024!

kalifire x

[Skip997]

4 hours ago, Barry Fish said:

Enforce - but that requires the destruction of Hamas you realise.

Yes, but Hamas can not be destroyed until the Palestinians have their own completely automonous and independent state without Israeli interference. Until that happens more and young Palestinians will take up arms.

[Neil]

7 hours ago, Skip997 said:

If they actually properly defended and supported Palestine (the general population) and stopped giving Israel free reign to do whatever they want. Including insisting on and enforcing the”two state” solution with proper freedom for Palestinians.

they push the two state solution cos the only solution the Palestinians accept is genocide.

[Neil]

1 hour ago, Skip997 said:

Yes, but Hamas can not be destroyed until the Palestinians have their own completely automonous and independent state without Israeli interference. Until that happens more and young Palestinians will take up arms.

if  the Palestinians have their own completely autonomous and independent state without Israeli interference. will the Israeli's be allowed  their own completely autonomous and independent state without Palestinian interference ( without Palestinians throwing bombs over the border).

[steviewevie]

Tonight thank god it's them instead of you.

Happy f**king christmas.

[Skip997]

16 minutes ago, Neil said:

they push the two state solution cos the only solution the Palestinians accept is genocide.

Why can people not understand that the vast majority of Palestinians are only interested in living a normal life, under their own terms (not dictated by a foreign power) and are not concerned with wiping anybody out.

Imagine for a moment that you are young Palestinian, what are you going to do when constantly oppressed by a foreign state?