Are Tories welcome at Glastonbury

[Kay95]

apropos of nothing recent on this thread... just seen on twitter smash hits 3 16 june 1987, page 9:

 

Edited October 17, 2018 by Kay95

[Kay95]

but relevant to more recent discussions, I believe that there are people out there that choose not to work and claim benefits instead. I also believe that they are a tiny minority and we shouldn't design a punitive and hostile system around them which punishes the vast majority of people out there who would love to work but can't for many and varied reasons.

[Rose-Colored Boy]

10 hours ago, glastolover19 said:

I don't believe they have started these forced daily clubs in my area yet however I might be wrong. But do you genuinely not believe that some(not all) people chose to do that instead of working?

I mean it's impossible to live on JSA alone.. I think there's a tiny handful of people who combine JSA with various other welfare claims, instead of working, to live very basically. But in terms of society's priorities, 'clamping down' on that handful of people should be at the bottom of the list with giving tax cuts to millionaires.

[RichardWaller]

20 hours ago, glastolover19 said:

Yeah I think welfare is probably best left alone or certainly more sensible then myself,I do think there is a lot of piss takers but that's a different story.

And yes I did sir,about my 30th and can't even remember? well I'm more then happy to buy you cider in June

Aye it's always a contentious subject. Think the piss takers are at the thin end of the wedge meself mind, and we should have far bigger fish to fry.

May well hold you to that pint, I'll be the big northern one who looks a bit pissed, you can't miss me.

[RichardWaller]

1 minute ago, Rose-Colored Boy said:

I mean it's impossible to live on JSA alone.. I think there's a tiny handful of people who combine JSA with various other welfare claims, instead of working, to live very basically. But in terms of society's priorities, 'clamping down' on that handful of people should be at the bottom of the list with giving tax cuts to millionaires.

I was on JSA for just shy of a year across 2011-2012. Awful time, was fresh from a break up, barely had a social life, applying for more jobs than I even care to remember but on the bright side I did lose a hell of a lot of weight cos I couldn't afford to eat junk, drink or use public transport. I'm a big lad, 6ft3. I was about 20st when I started on JSA, got down to 14st 10lb by the time I managed to find a job. Unfortunately haven't maintained that weight... I couldn't wait to start work, I was volunteering at a charity shop just for something to do to stop myself going mad. It was the first time I was prescribed anti-depressants. The next job I had was also the worst job I've had but at least it was a start again, hopped from job to job for a bit and at the age of 31 after 20 temp jobs, I finally got my first permanent job. It drives me mad how misrepresented welfare and employment are. Yesterday I heard on the radio that we've got a 4% unemployment rate, the lowest since 1971 apparently. Funnily coinciding with a record number of zero hour contracts last year. Quite disingenuous that you don't have to be working and earning to be classed as employed.

[glastolover19]

24 minutes ago, Rose-Colored Boy said:

I mean it's impossible to live on JSA alone.. I think there's a tiny handful of people who combine JSA with various other welfare claims, instead of working, to live very basically. But in terms of society's priorities, 'clamping down' on that handful of people should be at the bottom of the list with giving tax cuts to millionaires.

Shouldn't you clamp down on both. Sorry you can deny it as much as you want but certain people choose to live off benefits,don't believe me come to my kid's school

[glastolover19]

25 minutes ago, RichardWaller said:

Aye it's always a contentious subject. Think the piss takers are at the thin end of the wedge meself mind, and we should have far bigger fish to fry.

May well hold you to that pint, I'll be the big northern one who looks a bit pissed, you can't miss me.

It is contentious your right but I think we should be closing all loopholes that effect the public purse wether it's tax dodgers or benefits cheaters.

By all means sir give a toot in June,I'll get you that drink

[RichardWaller]

1 minute ago, glastolover19 said:

It is contentious your right but I think we should be closing all loopholes that effect the public purse wether it's tax dodgers or benefits cheaters.

By all means sir give a toot in June,I'll get you that drink

Aye we should but I think we should be doing it proportionately. The government employs 8 times more people to investigate benefit fraud than tax dodging, despite tax dodging costing us nearly 7 times more https://fullfact.org/economy/benefit-fraud-tax-inspectors-numbers/. Can only speculate why their priorities are the way they are...

Aye, sure there'll be an official meet up thread up at some point. Not been to one yet.

[uscore]

I think it's diminishing returns.  I don't believe many fit and healthy people simply chose not to work and live solely off benefits with no intention of ever working.  But there are bound to be some determined people that do that.    I don't think it's right to make benefits so difficult to get and such a small amount of money, just because of that group of people.  You end up hurting lots of others in the process.   And if you did get manage to affect those people you are targeting, where's the evidence that they will suddenly change their ways and become wonderful members of society?  How do you know they won't turn to crime for example. and then end up costing us taxpayers far more than their meagre benefits?

That's why I always think such obsession with the will-not-works is purely ideological, not financial nor compassionate.  I don't think it is going to save the country much money, nor improve anyone's lives.  The "will-not-works" are a useful bogeyman, to help the government reduce the welfare state for everyone.  Don't fall for it.

I'm very interested in the idea of universal basic income.  Let everyone have that bare minimum and stop making a bogeyman out of them. I think the vast majority of people will want to work, to better themselves and to earn more for their family.  Those that don't will have enough to get by, and we won't waste taxpayer money investigating them, or locking them up.   Might mean the papers have to find new bogeymen to make us all angry about though, but i'm sure they have lots of targets.

 

[glastolover19]

1 minute ago, RichardWaller said:

Aye we should but I think we should be doing it proportionately. The government employs 8 times more people to investigate benefit fraud than tax dodging, despite tax dodging costing us nearly 7 times more https://fullfact.org/economy/benefit-fraud-tax-inspectors-numbers/. Can only speculate why their priorities are the way they are...

Aye, sure there'll be an official meet up thread up at some point. Not been to one yet.

I totally agree with you that it's way out of proportion,I'm not saying let the tax dodgers get away with it,I'm saying we should go after both. That's the thing if we want genuine equality then everyone has to treated the same. There is no point saying let's punish the rich and let the poor get away with it,you are then basically taking the same situation we have right now just the roles have been reversed. 

[stuartbert two hats]

On 10/16/2018 at 8:07 AM, Rose-Colored Boy said:

Yeah he’s not funny, he’s a horrible prick who seemingly spent time at school learning Latin but not about the concepts of ‘loyalty’, ‘principles’ or ‘respect’. It’s been almost a year now since his remarks endangered the life of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe and he’s still yet to properly apologise beyond the typical coward’s way out of ‘I’m sorry if I’ve caused you any distress’ blah blah blah. Ghastly little man who rather neatly sums up everything wrong with this decade of British politics.

Or economics, seemingly.

[RichardWaller]

12 minutes ago, glastolover19 said:

I totally agree with you that it's way out of proportion,I'm not saying let the tax dodgers get away with it,I'm saying we should go after both. That's the thing if we want genuine equality then everyone has to treated the same. There is no point saying let's punish the rich and let the poor get away with it,you are then basically taking the same situation we have right now just the roles have been reversed. 

Aye course, we should go after both, that'd be fair but Tories aren't that interested in fairness.

[glastolover19]

1 minute ago, RichardWaller said:

Aye course, we should go after both, that'd be fair but Tories aren't that interested in fairness.

Of course they aren't,they look after their own but really no political party is that interested in total fairness really. As I have stated before I'm not aligned to any political party as far as I'm concerned they are all as bad as each other albeit in different ways

[Rose-Colored Boy]

1 hour ago, RichardWaller said:

I was on JSA for just shy of a year across 2011-2012. Awful time, was fresh from a break up, barely had a social life, applying for more jobs than I even care to remember but on the bright side I did lose a hell of a lot of weight cos I couldn't afford to eat junk, drink or use public transport. I'm a big lad, 6ft3. I was about 20st when I started on JSA, got down to 14st 10lb by the time I managed to find a job. Unfortunately haven't maintained that weight... I couldn't wait to start work, I was volunteering at a charity shop just for something to do to stop myself going mad. It was the first time I was prescribed anti-depressants. The next job I had was also the worst job I've had but at least it was a start again, hopped from job to job for a bit and at the age of 31 after 20 temp jobs, I finally got my first permanent job. It drives me mad how misrepresented welfare and employment are. Yesterday I heard on the radio that we've got a 4% unemployment rate, the lowest since 1971 apparently. Funnily coinciding with a record number of zero hour contracts last year. Quite disingenuous that you don't have to be working and earning to be classed as employed.

Yep.. I wish we had separate statistics for 'meaningful employment' i.e. excluding anyone 'employed' on zero hours contracts, excluding anyone on less than the living wage, excluding anyone who goes door to door selling, excluding anyone who works in a call centre, etc.

If we did, the perception that this country is doing anything other than going backwards would change very fast.

[RichardWaller]

2 minutes ago, glastolover19 said:

Of course they aren't,they look after their own but really no political party is that interested in total fairness really. As I have stated before I'm not aligned to any political party as far as I'm concerned they are all as bad as each other albeit in different ways

Aye and like I said yesterday I used to resent voting for whoever I thought was the lesser of two evils. I've been alternating between Greens locally and Labour nationally for the last few years, but really I suppose I'm just voting Not Tory as much as owt. Been disillusioned and confused by Labour for a long time, don't know what the hell they're playing at, too many MPs, councilors and members seem more interested in fighting between "hard left" and "moderates" than against the Tories.

[Rose-Colored Boy]

We really need to change the ballot papers in this country so that people have the option to make it clear whether they're voting for a party whilst holding their nose. Labour is going to get a lot of votes at the next election which it will takes as endorsement of its awfulness despite in actuality them being gritted teeth 'anyone but the Torys' votes.

[glastolover19]

1 minute ago, RichardWaller said:

Aye and like I said yesterday I used to resent voting for whoever I thought was the lesser of two evils. I've been alternating between Greens locally and Labour nationally for the last few years, but really I suppose I'm just voting Not Tory as much as owt. Been disillusioned and confused by Labour for a long time, don't know what the hell they're playing at, too many MPs, councilors and members seem more interested in fighting between "hard left" and "moderates" than against the Tories.

I've unfortunately lived through a lot of shitty governments,the 80s were shite under thatcher that's well documented,I was homeless for 2 years under Labour in 90s without any help. Personally I'm for a cross party coalition so it represents all ranges of society instead of the 1 or 2

[RichardWaller]

5 minutes ago, Rose-Colored Boy said:

Yep.. I wish we had separate statistics for 'meaningful employment' i.e. excluding anyone 'employed' on zero hours contracts, excluding anyone on less than the living wage, excluding anyone who goes door to door selling, excluding anyone who works in a call centre, etc.

If we did, the perception that this country is doing anything other than going backwards would change very fast.

Oh aye definitely, but I fear the government are going to get away with that claim with people championing this record high in employment while not taking the time to wonder why poverty and homelessness have been shooting up the way they have. 

[RichardWaller]

2 minutes ago, glastolover19 said:

I've unfortunately lived through a lot of shitty governments,the 80s were shite under thatcher that's well documented,I was homeless for 2 years under Labour in 90s without any help. Personally I'm for a cross party coalition so it represents all ranges of society instead of the 1 or 2

We can't even get Labour to agree with Labour or the Conservatives to agree with the Conservatives, never mind any cross party coalitions!

Sorry to hear about your struggles, glad you're past the worst.

[Rose-Colored Boy]

5 minutes ago, glastolover19 said:

I've unfortunately lived through a lot of shitty governments,the 80s were shite under thatcher that's well documented,I was homeless for 2 years under Labour in 90s without any help. Personally I'm for a cross party coalition so it represents all ranges of society instead of the 1 or 2

Really sorry to hear that, I can't even imagine how awful that must be  man 

[Rose-Colored Boy]

4 minutes ago, RichardWaller said:

Oh aye definitely, but I fear the government are going to get away with that claim with people championing this record high in employment while not taking the time to wonder why poverty and homelessness have been shooting up the way they have. 

Their polling numbers aren't exactly through the roof like they would be if significant numbers of people actually believed it so I'm optimistic. Dunno.

[RichardWaller]

4 minutes ago, Rose-Colored Boy said:

We really need to change the ballot papers in this country so that people have the option to make it clear whether they're voting for a party whilst holding their nose. Labour is going to get a lot of votes at the next election which it will takes as endorsement of its awfulness despite in actuality them being gritted teeth 'anyone but the Torys' votes.

Unfortunately I suspect that when the No to AV campaign won in 2011, that'll be taken as a no to any kind of electoral reform at all. A bit like Brexit really, tough shit it's happening. Oddly enough when Manchester voted via referendum against having an elected mayor that was also a case of tough shit, it's happening. Will of the people, eh?

I'd love to see some form of electoral reform, the current system is unfair but it does have its plus points... 2015 UKIP got 12.6% of the vote but 0.2% of the seats and as unfair as that is my heart doesn't exactly bleed for em...  I just can't see much electoral reform happening, it suits who it suits. We've seen how up in arms Labour MPs have been getting about talk of deselection, or reselection as I like to call it.. Like it or lump it, eh?

[Rose-Colored Boy]

12 minutes ago, RichardWaller said:

Unfortunately I suspect that when the No to AV campaign won in 2011, that'll be taken as a no to any kind of electoral reform at all. A bit like Brexit really, tough shit it's happening. Oddly enough when Manchester voted via referendum against having an elected mayor that was also a case of tough shit, it's happening. Will of the people, eh?

I'd love to see some form of electoral reform, the current system is unfair but it does have its plus points... 2015 UKIP got 12.6% of the vote but 0.2% of the seats and as unfair as that is my heart doesn't exactly bleed for em...  I just can't see much electoral reform happening, it suits who it suits. We've seen how up in arms Labour MPs have been getting about talk of deselection, or reselection as I like to call it.. Like it or lump it, eh?

Oh I agree, electoral reform is a total must if we're ever going to move our society properly on from the 20th Century way of doing things. I like the MMP system that Germany and New Zealand use, and Scotland and Wales already use that same method for their devolved parliaments so hopefully if we were to bring in reform for the Westminster elections then that would be the one we went for.

But even in the short term - because, as you say, meaningful reform blatantly isn't going to happen any time soon - there should be some way of registering your discontent with the choices on offer, whilst still making your vote count. The current binary choice between either fully endorsing a party's platform or spoiling your ballot so your vote doesn't count for anything at all is total bullshit - as we're seeing with Jeremy Corbyn and co claiming that the 2017 election results were proof that the majority of the country wants to leave the customs union. Yeah right dickhead.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Rose-Colored Boy

[glastolover19]

25 minutes ago, RichardWaller said:

We can't even get Labour to agree with Labour or the Conservatives to agree with the Conservatives, never mind any cross party coalitions!

Sorry to hear about your struggles, glad you're past the worst.

Unfortunately that is the main stumbling block,the problem is a lot of parties have a us or them attitude where it should be us AND them. I think that all parties are bad in some way,probably the same amount of badness on each sides just in different ways.

Thank you that's very kind to say,all good now been ok for nearly 20years now,it's actually my wife who deserves all the praise,it was her who saved me(funny thing is she is one of these"bloody immigrants" the Tory/daily mail hate)

[glastolover19]

33 minutes ago, Rose-Colored Boy said:

Really sorry to hear that, I can't even imagine how awful that must be  man 

Thank you and yeah it was shite but that's life and it's true no matter how bad your life is their is someone always worse off. That's why I don't trust any government regardless of party to do the right thing by everyone