General Election 2015

[LJS]

I don't disagree.

You recently took the piss out of me for me (supposedly, i don't remember) said that it was impossible for the tories and LibDems to team up in coalition.

You've said the same about the SNP and the tories - even the SNP have said that about the tories - and yet the SNP have already teamed up with the tories quite happily.

And the rest of what you say only goes to reinforce the idea that the SNP with the tories is far from an impossibility. The tories will make the SNP some sort of offer, as will Labour. The sNP will choose the offer that best suits them - and that doesn't rule the tories out, despite the SNP's claims.

Remember, the SNP are the party who just six months ago falsely claimed that Scotland would be *MORE* prosperous than the UK if indie - without anything about "but in decades to come". They were talking immediately.

And now they've as-good-as-admitted it was a complete fabrication, and snippers like you aren't condemning them for their lies that tried to take you to disaster, so you'll also give them a free-pass in any tory deal too.

After all, the "blue tories" and the "red tories" are both the same, so the SNP myth goes that the Scottish snipper population swallows - but who then have no problem with the SNP aligning themselves with the "red tories" who are as horrible as the "blue tories".

And it's no coincidence i'm seeing a LOT of snippers saying it they'd accept a deal with the tories if it delivered for the SNP.

All politicians are duplicitous, the SNP more duplicitous than most.

Well, Neil, we know where you go to see what nationalists views are. It doesn't surprise me that you have come across such views. My view is different. If the SNP play any part in enabling a Tory government, they have lost my vote.

My reading of Scottish politics is that they would lose many many votes. They would also forfeit any chance of winning independence for at least a generation.

[eFestivals]

Well, Neil, we know where you go to see what nationalists views are.

yup, where the nationalists hang out.

So I get to see what those nationalist SNP supporters want, will stomach, and all the rest (mostly economic idiocy, but there you go).

And I assure you, the vast majority would support a deal with the tories that gave them indie - or even FFA.

It doesn't surprise me that you have come across such views. My view is different. If the SNP play any part in enabling a Tory government, they have lost my vote.

Oh, so you're admitting your vote now?

My reading of Scottish politics is that they would lose many many votes. They would also forfeit any chance of winning independence for at least a generation.

If a deal with the tories gives them indie, what have they lost?

Edited April 22, 2015 by eFestivals

[LJS]

yup, where the nationalists hang out.

So I get to see what those nationalist SNP supporters want, will stomach, and all the rest (mostly economic idiocy, but there you go).

And I assure you, the vast majority would support a deal with the tories that gave them indie - or even FFA.

Oh, so you're admitting your vote now?

If a deal with the tories gives them indie, what have they lost?

Your majority is of the tiny minority who post on wings or the guardian or wherever else you have been hanging out.

I declared my vote about 2 weeks ago. You must have missed it.

The Tories will offer Indy without a referendum?

You get crazier every day.

[eFestivals]

Your majority is of the tiny minority who post on wings or the guardian or wherever else you have been hanging out.

the same small minority posting across 8 different websites (with a huge variety of views towards the SNP and indie on those websites)?

And that same small minority being the ones who come up with the myth of the week every week, that you and comfy post about 5 days after they start with the new myth?

Whoever I'm reading and however big the numbers of them really are, there's absolutely no doubt that those are the people who are driving the narrative people like you work to - they are not your own thoughts.

(I'm sure that you'll claim that they are, but if you read as widely as me you'd see you're following the narrative that others start)

I declared my vote about 2 weeks ago. You must have missed it.

I must have, but you've spent months denying you'd vote SNP - and very insistently.

At least it's all out in the open now.

The Tories will offer Indy without a referendum?

You get crazier every day.

I doubt they'd do it without a ref, but who knows? They clearly want to keep power.

But anyway, according to the latest proclamations by snippers - you included - it's claimed that support for indy is now much greater and that you'd win.

Like so much of this, the closer it gets the more you back away.

Edited April 22, 2015 by eFestivals

[pink_triangle]

My view is different. If the SNP play any part in enabling a Tory government, they have lost my vote.

I think their tactic of publicly stating that labour should join them to force David Cameron out of Downing Street could play a role in enabling a Tory government. Note it is making labour very uncomfortable, while conservatives feel they can gain political benefit from it. My concern is the SNP bravado pushed UKIP voters back into the conservative camp.

[eFestivals]

My concern is the SNP bravado pushed UKIP voters back into the conservative camp.

and that's their aim. Nothing suits the SNP's aims better than a tory govt.

And no protests from snippers undermines that absolutely certain fact.

[LondonTom]

I guess if you dream hard enough that everything will go exactly to plan and as you wish, it might happen?

My reading of Scottish politics is that they would lose many many votes. They would also forfeit any chance of winning independence for at least a generation.

Wasn't the vote last year the last chance for a generation?

[eFestivals]

Wasn't the vote last year the last chance for a generation?

the new snipper myth is that was only said as the personal opinion of St Alex.

The reality is that it was stated explicitly and officially in the Scottish Govt's 'white paper for independence'.

[Comfy Bean]

There is nothing to fear Baz, accept the hand of friendship

- The right wing media plus some less obvious folks will step up their game now as we enter the closing stages but don`t believe the hype.

- There will be no kilted masses marching on Westminster.

-I f the polls are right - and they seem pretty stable, then Ed will have 2 choices : Some kind of deal with NS or hand the keys back to Dave.

- What do we really think he would do with power so close he can touch it ?

In my opinion things " could " play out as follows...........

- NO confidence and supply 5 year deal - suits both sides.

- Vote by vote basis - suits both sides as SNP can vote against stuff ( save face ) but won`t bring down Ed in the process.No probs here, the current Govt have lost votes, Blair lost votes.

-Trident goes down as a spending estimate and if all the Labour MP`s vote for it with the Tories then " we " renew Trident and all SNP MP`s vote against spending on it and save face. That could get a wee bit interesting if a stack of Labour MP`s vote with the SNP but thats another story.

- The SNP will also vote against any cuts they don`t like but Labour will still get them through with the Tories help ( Just as Labour backed the Tories plans in January ).

- As part of the negotiation Labour will " consult " with the SNP during the drafting of their Queen speech. This will be behind closed doors but it`s reasonable to assume that NS will have some ( small ) influence as by that point Ed will can see the keys. As part of being involved in the drafting process and having some ( small ) influence I would guess that NS will commit her MP`s to vote on ALL matters ( including english only ones ) which would require a change in position from NS but in reality whats the point in being there and shoring up Ed if they are not going to vote with them on a range of things to get them through against the Tories wishes. If my complete guesswork comes to pass then Dave would be gone anyway but that last bit could send him ( plus Neil ) over the edge

As Gordon Brown said in September, Scotland should lead the UK not leave it it almost seems like a whole lot of Labour folk have changed their mind on this since the Indy Ref but I could be wrong of course.

Imaginationland !

I guess if you dream hard enough that everything will go exactly to plan and as you wish, it might happen?

Hi Tom,

I`ve tweaked the layout of my post ( above ) but not the text. If you don`t mind me saying, you have taken a bit of a broad brush to the points I made with your Imaginationland cartoon ( cute as it is ). Why don`t you address the points I made and outline where you think I`ve got it all so crazily wrong. Then we can look back in a couple of weeks and see how it played out.

I would add that I was only offering my opinion and described bits of my post as guesswork. So....we`ve had my opinion, what`s yours mate ? Where specifically do you think I`ve got it wrong ?

[Comfy Bean]

the new snipper myth is that was only said as the personal opinion of St Alex.

The reality is that it was stated explicitly and officially in the Scottish Govt's 'white paper for independence'.

This is a general election. You won.....move on. We have now seen the SNP manifesto. Indy ain`t in it. Lets take care of the business at hand. NS is

Edited April 22, 2015 by comfortablynumb1910

[eFestivals]

As Gordon Brown said in September, Scotland should lead the UK not leave it

as Gordon Brown gets to prove, Scotland has, very often.

But that's a bit of an inconvenient truth to the snipper's narrative.

it almost seems like a whole lot of Labour folk have changed their mind on this since the Indy Ref but I could be wrong of course.

Do you understand what nationalism is all about?

Any rejection of the SNP by any parties will be fuck all to do with nationality and everything to do with nationalism.

But don't let that stop you repeating the myth. You've got nothing without it.

[LJS]

and that's their aim. Nothing suits the SNP's aims better than a tory govt.

And no protests from snippers undermines that absolutely certain fact.

Which does absolutely nothing to prove they would do anything to bring it about.

The point you continue to ignore is that they would lose some of their 45% whilst further alienating the 55%. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

[LJS]

the new snipper myth is that was only said as the personal opinion of St Alex.

The reality is that it was stated explicitly and officially in the Scottish Govt's 'white paper for independence'.

You'll be able to quote word for word what it says then, won't you?

[pink_triangle]

Which does absolutely nothing to prove they would do anything to bring it about.

The point you continue to ignore is that they would lose some of their 45% whilst further alienating the 55%. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Forgetting what may or may not happen following the election. Do you think the campaign for the snp results in conservatives in England getting more votes or less?

[LJS]

Forgetting what may or may not happen following the election. Do you think the campaign for the snp results in conservatives in England getting more votes or less?

Well, Neil posted a while back about the surge in the polls for the Tories which it then turned out he'd imagined. It certainly doesn't look like it will be enough for them to win.

The problem for them is that Nicola is clearly not the monster they make her out to be.

[russycarps]

Labour would be trouncing the tories if it wasnt for this snp distraction. That much is blatantly clear. And the fact they arent is music to the snp's ears.

5 years of intense pain under a tory/ukip/dup coalition is exactly what the snp and their more duplicitous supporters want - despite the increase in poverty and accompanying surge in misery/divorce/suicide - as it means campaigning for the next in/out referendum will be much easier.

The only thing the snp care about is independence. It's their raison d'etre. Everything else is a lie.

[eFestivals]

Which does absolutely nothing to prove they would do anything to bring it about.

well, except telling people in England and Wales not to vote Labour. That sort of thing.

The point you continue to ignore is that they would lose some of their 45% whilst further alienating the 55%. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

It makes perfect sense.

If they can contrive something to avoid blame on them for there being a tory govt, why would the people who don't at the moment hold them to account suddenly start holding them to account?

There's already a solid narrative in Scotland that however you vote (unless tory) you can't bring about a tory govt, and yet that's not true by the fact of a Labour/SNP tie-up shifting some votes towards the tories.

So if the SNP can help shift some more of the votes in any manner - I dunno, like sending St Alex on a media tour vat the start, just perhaps - then it's all good towards the SNP's final solution for Scotland.

And they can't really lose by it, in your world at least. If they help Labour form a govt they're heroes, and if they're in opposition to the tories they're still heroes..... but only one of those sides gets them closer to indie, and it's not via a tie-up with Labour.

[eFestivals]

Well, Neil posted a while back about the surge in the polls for the Tories which it then turned out he'd imagined. It certainly doesn't look like it will be enough for them to win.

The problem for them is that Nicola is clearly not the monster they make her out to be.

except most projections do have the tories winning - or at least, being the largest party.

The tories didn't invent the anti-SNP rhetoric out of nothing. It works for them, and that's why they do it.

[eFestivals]

You'll be able to quote word for word what it says then, won't you?

http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0043/00439021.pdf

Page 3: "a once in a generation opportunity to follow a different path"

Page 10: "a once in a generation opportunity to chart a better way."

It's 670 pages, how much proof do you need of the same thing?

Now, step away from the myth. Lay that myth on the floor, and stamp on it's head.

[eFestivals]

Labour would be trouncing the tories if it wasnt for this snp distraction. That much is blatantly clear. And the fact they arent is music to the snp's ears.

5 years of intense pain under a tory/ukip/dup coalition is exactly what the snp and their more duplicitous supporters want - despite the increase in poverty and accompanying surge in misery/divorce/suicide - as it means campaigning for the next in/out referendum will be much easier.

The only thing the snp care about is independence. It's their raison d'etre. Everything else is a lie.

You're not wrong.

The only chances Scotland has of being economically viable at the whole-UK level of prosperity is via the tories cutting down Scotland's public spending.

And if the tories do it, the SNP get a free pass over what they'd otherwise have to do.

[LJS]

well, except telling people in England and Wales not to vote Labour. That sort of thing.

It makes perfect sense.

If they can contrive something to avoid blame on them for there being a tory govt, why would the people who don't at the moment hold them to account suddenly start holding them to account?

There's already a solid narrative in Scotland that however you vote (unless tory) you can't bring about a tory govt, and yet that's not true by the fact of a Labour/SNP tie-up shifting some votes towards the tories.

So if the SNP can help shift some more of the votes in any manner - I dunno, like sending St Alex on a media tour vat the start, just perhaps - then it's all good towards the SNP's final solution for Scotland.

And they can't really lose by it, in your world at least. If they help Labour form a govt they're heroes, and if they're in opposition to the tories they're still heroes..... but only one of those sides gets them closer to indie, and it's not via a tie-up with Labour.

You noticed how quiet st Alex has been. Can you work out why that might be?

[LJS]

http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0043/00439021.pdf

Page 3: "a once in a generation opportunity to follow a different path"

Page 10: "a once in a generation opportunity to chart a better way."

It's 670 pages, how much proof do you need of the same thing?

Now, step away from the myth. Lay that myth on the floor, and stamp on it's head.

Yeah, I know that was the wording. It's not a promise, or a vow.

Not even a commitment.

Try again.

[LondonTom]

Hi Tom,

I`ve tweaked the layout of my post ( above ) but not the text. If you don`t mind me saying, you have taken a bit of a broad brush to the points I made with your Imaginationland cartoon ( cute as it is ). Why don`t you address the points I made and outline where you think I`ve got it all so crazily wrong. Then we can look back in a couple of weeks and see how it played out.

I would add that I was only offering my opinion and described bits of my post as guesswork. So....we`ve had my opinion, what`s yours mate ? Where specifically do you think I`ve got it wrong ?

I apologise for the cartoon, its not so much you being "crazily wrong" but nothing in this will ever go that perfect will it?

But :

There is nothing to fear Baz, accept the hand of friendship

The right wing media plus some less obvious folks will step up their game now as we enter the closing stages but don`t believe the hype. There will be no kilted masses marching on Westminster.

If the polls are right - and they seem pretty stable, then Ed will have 2 choices : Some kind of deal with NS or hand the keys back to Dave. What do we really think he would do with power so close he can touch it ?

In my opinion things " could " play out as follows...........

NO confidence and supply 5 year deal - suits both sides

The SNP would want nothing in return for this? Remember Labour has to be very careful for the rUK vote that they are not seen as giving into Scotland. So it might not suit both sides...

Vote by vote basis - suits both sides as SNP can vote against stuff ( save face ) but won`t bring down Ed in the process.No probs here, the current Govt have lost votes, Blair lost votes.

Obviusly if they stop being able to implement anything meaningfull a the SNP refuse to back it, this might become a problem. I'd imagine that would be towards the end of any government though

Trident goes down as a spending estimate and if all the Labour MP`s vote for it with the Tories then " we " renew Trident and all SNP MP`s vote against spending on it and save face. That could get a wee bit interesting if a stack of Labour MP`s vote with the SNP but thats another story.

Likely it has to be said I guess, I wouldn't put past the tories to find some reason to vote against it and then start a campaign blaming Labour for the lack of nuclear deterrent though.

The SNP will also vote against any cuts they don`t like but Labour will still get them through with the Tories help ( Just as Labour backed the Tories plans in January ).

The Tories might not find it in their best intrests to help, remember they are not that far behind Labour.

As part of the negotiation Labour will " consult " with the SNP during the drafting of their Queen speech. This will be behind closed doors but it`s reasonable to assume that NS will have some ( small ) influence as by that point Ed will can see the keys.

Fantastic, this won't look suspicious at all for anything that might favour Scotland? What if Labour don't agree with the results of the SNP's "Consultation" ?

As part of being involved in the drafting process and having some ( small ) influence I would guess that NS will commit her MP`s to vote on ALL matters ( including english only ones ) which would require a change in position from NS but in reality whats the point in being there and shoring up Ed if they are not going to vote with them on a range of things to get them through against the Tories wishes

Again, it depends entirely on what the "small influence" is and wouldn't look great would it? It would be almost like we was being dictated to by a section of the country that wants away.

If my complete guesswork comes to pass then Dave would be gone anyway but that last bit could send him ( plus Neil ) over the edge

As Gordon Brown said in September, Scotland should lead the UK not leave it it almost seems like a whole lot of Labour folk have changed their mind on this since the Indy Ref but I could be wrong of course.

Yup,I just think to much needs to go exactly to plan for all of that to happen.

[eFestivals]

You noticed how quiet st Alex has been. Can you work out why that might be?

But he was let out of the box first, and 100% backed up on all he said by Sturgeon.

It didn't need to happen, but it did - and right at the start of the election campaign, perfectly timed. It was no coincidence.

And yes, i'm sure you'll say he had a book to promote so why shouldn't he. Well, he's campaigning to serve the people, so he says, and not himself.

And given that you're recognising he serves the SNP's stated objectives best by staying hidden, you can't give him a free pass on that.

[eFestivals]

Yeah, I know that was the wording. It's not a promise, or a vow.

Not even a commitment.

Try again.

It is an official statement of the limits around the objective of independence via referenda.

Get over it.