Football 2013-2014

[eFestivals]

My view is that Arsene Wenger has transformed domestic English football more than any individual in my lifetime. I completely agree with you that things would be very different without him. However that doesn't give him a free pass for anything that has gone wrong since.

who's giving him a free pass? Not me.

Firstly we have to decide what exactly would be "going wrong".

- Are (say) Stoke going wrong, by being good enough to stay in the Prem but who are not ever going to finish near the top?

- Are QPR going wrong, spending more than Arsenal and getting relegated?

- Are Spurs going wrong, spending more than Arsenal and going nowhere?

- Are City going wrong, spending the budget of a small country, and not cleaning up?

- are Utd going wrong, spending more than Arsenal and dropping 7 places?

What would have been going wrong for Arsenal would be:-

- spending money they don't have: not done.

- failing to finish in the top 4: not done.

- having a fantastic stadium that financially cripples them forever: not done.

So has Wenger failed? He might not have the fattest trophy cabinet (like nearly every team in existence), but he's bveen able to manage the team at a consistently high level thru a difficult financial period for the club whilst not spunking a fortune on players as every club around them has *NEEDED* to do.

In my book that's as successful as it possible to be, outside of being the one winner there is each and every season and where it would be ridiculously impossible for Arsenal to compete at that level within the financial reality they've had to live by.

There's not a single one of us reading this who wouldn't absolutely love to "fail" with the same massive success as Wenger has had.

Edited March 25, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Yeah I don't disagree. I just think that physical strength is a meaningful attribute in football and that you dismissed it idly.

it's less meaningful than having a greater footballing skill, which can be tricks or muscle.

It's being better that counts. How you're better matters not a fuck.

And the full reverse of that is also as true.

[pink_triangle]

who's giving him a free pass? Not me.

Firstly we have to decide what exactly would be "going wrong".

- Are (say) Stoke going wrong, by being good enough to stay in the Prem but who are not ever going to finish near the top?

- Are QPR going wrong, spending more than Arsenal and getting relegated?

- Are Spurs going wrong, spending more than Arsenal and going nowhere?

- Are City going wrong, spending the budget of a small country, and not cleaning up?

- are Utd going wrong, spending more than Arsenal and dropping 7 places?

What would have been going wrong for Arsenal would be:-

- spending money they don't have: not done.

- failing to finish in the top 4: not done.

- having a fantastic stadium that financially cripples them forever: not done.

So has Wenger failed? He might not have the fattest trophy cabinet (like nearly every team in existence), but he's bveen able to manage the team at a consistently high level thru a difficult financial period for the club whilst not spunking a fortune on players as every club around them has *NEEDED* to do.

In my book that's as successful as it possible to be, outside of being the one winner there is each and every season and where it would be ridiculously impossible for Arsenal to compete at that level within the financial reality they've had to live by.

There's not a single one of us reading this who wouldn't absolutely love to "fail" with the same massive success as Wenger has had.

[The Nal]

There's not a single one of us reading this who wouldn't absolutely love to "fail" with the same massive success as Wenger has had.

[eFestivals]

A lot of Arsenal fans want to see him go at the end of the season. Hes won nothing for 9 years, Hes earned £50m in that time,.

there's no accounting for morons. They'll always be morons.

Any manager - or more likely a progression of managers - they'd have had over that time would have earned at least that (and probably a lot more with pay-offs for failure), would have spent far more, and would very likely have won less.

In the (changed) words of Joe Jackson...

Look Over there. Where? There.

There's a big club that I used to know.

They're failing now or completely fucked up so I'm told.

For that club, take yer pick. In Wenger's time, only Arsenal have succeeded in staying at the top level - not one other club has managed to do it.

Be careful what you wish for, you might get David Moyes.

[pink_triangle]

A lot of Arsenal fans want to see him go at the end of the season. Hes won nothing for 9 years, Hes earned £50m in that time,.

[The Nal]

there's no accounting for morons. They'll always be morons.

Any manager - or more likely a progression of managers - they'd have had over that time would have earned at least that (and probably a lot more with pay-offs for failure), would have spent far more, and would very likely have won less.

In the (changed) words of Joe Jackson...

Look Over there. Where? There.

There's a big club that I used to know.

They're failing now or completely fucked up so I'm told.

For that club, take yer pick. In Wenger's time, only Arsenal have succeeded in staying at the top level - not one other club has managed to do it.

Be careful what you wish for, you might get David Moyes.

[TheGayTent]

Those Arsenal fans should look at what happened when Fergie left and also remember Arsenal were not always in the top 4 and winning trophies before he arrived.

[eFestivals]

But I still think theres a few genuine criticisms there that he needs to addressed. Next season is a big one for him. Clear road ahead.

One thing Wenger's time has proved is that he can spot the right young talent.

The problem has been holding onto them, or buying in replacements - both of which come down to money.

There's cash freed up for players now, but it'll be another three seasons until that's properly upgraded the squad. Unless you have City amounts to spend, it takes a bit of time.

[eFestivals]

his refusal to amend his tactics regardless of who they play is a big weakness.

I'm not entirely sure I agree, tho I can where you're coming from.

He's playing the way that would do the job for them if the players they had were all that notch better.

And they'd be that notch better if they managed to hang onto the players they've brought thru, too (just think of Cesc, and Nasri, and all the others). It all comes back to the money.

[thetime]

Wasn't it on the most part wenger's unwilling to spend the money? Rather than no money available?

He's done very well keeping his job with no trophies for 8 years, it certainly wouldn't happen at any other top club.

When he does leave they could face the same problem as united post fergie and post busby. Being at a club so long, they will need to make the right decision in getting the right man. You would imagine it would be a manager who has the same ideas as wenger, or could face the same problems as united.

[The Nal]

Wasn't it on the most part wenger's unwilling to spend the money? Rather than no money available?

[eFestivals]

Wasn't it on the most part wenger's unwilling to spend the money? Rather than no money available?

he and directors have said there's been money to spend in recent years, but I'm not sure there has been.

He's done very well keeping his job with no trophies for 8 years, it certainly wouldn't happen at any other top club.

what you mean is that it wouldn't happen at another top club where there's been oodles of money to spend.

Whatevere the truth for the last couple of years, we know he's managed the skint years incredibly well, and it's not like they've been far away from winning either.

When he does leave they could face the same problem as united post fergie and post busby. Being at a club so long, they will need to make the right decision in getting the right man. You would imagine it would be a manager who has the same ideas as wenger, or could face the same problems as united.

PMSL ... a few years ago, you and other Utd fans would have been saying that there'ws no way that utd would fall, as everything was in place for them to keep winning.

Now you've been proven wrong, you're looking to lay what you rejected at the door of those you want to fail.

[thetime]

Whatevere the truth for the last couple of years, we know he's managed the skint years incredibly well, and it's not like they've been far away from winning either.

PMSL ... a few years ago, you and other Utd fans would have been saying that there'ws no way that utd would fall, as everything was in place for them to keep winning.

Now you've been proven wrong, you're looking to lay what you rejected at the door of those you want to fail.

[kaosmark2]

PMSL ... a few years months ago, you and other Utd fans would have been saying that there'ws no way that utd would fall, as everything was in place for them to keep winning.

[thetime]

FTFY

[pink_triangle]

They'd won the league twice not long before his arrival, not to mention FA and League Cups. He hardly took them from obscurity.

Clearly Wenger's done a pretty good job but he isn't beyond criticism. I think he's blind in some areas and his refusal to amend his tactics regardless of who they play is a big weakness.

[pink_triangle]

I'm not entirely sure I agree, tho I can where you're coming from.

He's playing the way that would do the job for them if the players they had were all that notch better.

[eFestivals]

I agree about the tactical point, there doesnt seem a willingness to learn from mistakes.

and we're back to the idea that they're 'weak' again.

As I keep on saying, if the skills were that notch higher you'd not hear a whisper of this.

Winning requires a high enough skill level. What precisely those skills are is not of any importance; the only thing that matters is having high enough skills.

[eFestivals]

PS: Arsenal would never have reached the levels they did - unprecedented levels - if Wenger had compromised his ideas so that it was unlikely he'd suffer an embarrassing result (such as the last match).

You only hit the heights when you aim for them.

[eFestivals]

Of course better players playing the same way, will always be better. However I think theres an element of needing different types of players which a decent sized squad should accomodate.

yeah, perhaps - but Arsenal's squad even now is threadbare. Of the top teams only Liverpool have worse, and they're scraping by only because they have one of the very best players in the world.

What does the sort of lower level (that Arsenal might have afforded) muscle player look like? It look like a Stoke player kicking the shit out of the opponents. That would NOT make Arsenal any better, but it would make them much worse to watch.

Arsenal need a Yaya if they're gonna go for big, and there's so few players like that, and they have a price beyond what Arsenal might have afforded.... plus, it appears that Kolo warned Yaya off, for whatever reasons.

[pink_triangle]

and we're back to the idea that they're 'weak' again.

As I keep on saying, if the skills were that notch higher you'd not hear a whisper of this.

Winning requires a high enough skill level. What precisely those skills are is not of any importance; the only thing that matters is having high enough skills.

[pink_triangle]

yeah, perhaps - but Arsenal's squad even now is threadbare. Of the top teams only Liverpool have worse, and they're scraping by only because they have one of the very best players in the world.

What does the sort of lower level (that Arsenal might have afforded) muscle player look like? It look like a Stoke player kicking the shit out of the opponents. That would NOT make Arsenal any better, but it would make them much worse to watch.

Arsenal need a Yaya if they're gonna go for big, and there's so few players like that, and they have a price beyond what Arsenal might have afforded.... plus, it appears that Kolo warned Yaya off, for whatever reasons.

[TheGayTent]

He's playing the way that would do the job for them if the players they had were all that notch better.

[kaosmark2]

I dont think anyones saying they should be buying Joey barton, well they havent for the last 3 years anyway!