Football 2013-2014

[pink_triangle]

I think it would be unwise to automatically laugh off what Campbell is saying. I think subconsciously people have an image of what an England captain looks like and that image is probably a white lionheart.

I'm certain racism plays a role in football. Would someone like Paul ince with experience playing for 3 huge team, experience of playing in Italy and international experience have had to start in league 2 if white. Of course we will never know, but I have my doubts.

[DomDom1984]

All you have is whataboutery and guesswork though. Certainly not enough to go and make it a big debate. Rio Ferdinand was due to be the captain for England in 2010 and he got injured.

It's not enough to kick off a massive hissy fit, that's for sure.

EDIT: Worth noting I'm only addressing the England situation. There's other aspects Campbell gets into that might be worth a look.

Edited March 2, 2014 by DomDom1984

[dentalplan]

I think Paul Ince being widely regarded as an unsavoury individual might have played into that a lot more.

Also, the ten years Sol Campbell would have been speaking of had Alan Shearer, David Beckham and partly John Terry; all regarded as leaders and all club captains - with the exception of David Beckham who turned out to be one of the most influential captains there have been.

I think he's still just sour about not getting the England assistant manager job that went to Gary Neville.

[DomDom1984]

Tony Adams was captain at one point as well, was he not?

[kaosmark2]

There's definitely racism when it comes to managers. Definitely. People have come to accept black players in the teams as a matter of course, but as leaders, coaching staff and particularly managers they haven't. Whether Sol's talking bollocks or not I have no idea.

[pink_triangle]

All you have is whataboutery and guesswork though. Certainly not enough to go and make it a big debate. Rio Ferdinand was due to be the captain for England in 2010 and he got injured.

It's not enough to kick off a massive hissy fit, that's for sure.

EDIT: Worth noting I'm only addressing the England situation. There's other aspects Campbell gets into that might be worth a look.

[DomDom1984]

It's not about change. It's about the potential of false and potentially damaging allegations of racism when it may not be the case.

[pink_triangle]

I think Paul Ince being widely regarded as an unsavoury individual might have played into that a lot more.

Also, the ten years Sol Campbell would have been speaking of had Alan Shearer, David Beckham and partly John Terry; all regarded as leaders and all club captains - with the exception of David Beckham who turned out to be one of the most influential captains there have been.

I think he's still just sour about not getting the England assistant manager job that went to Gary Neville.

[dentalplan]

Was Beckham really an influential captain or a persona created by a media. They didnt really do any better (or worse) before and after him, which suggests to me he made little difference one way or another.

To me Campbell was a more natural leader than shearer or Beckham and more consistent at international level, but others may disagree.

As for ince the unsavory side may have put people off, but plenty of unsavoury types like keane have started far higher up the pyramid. No way ince starts at the team 91/92 in.the pyramid if white.

[kaosmark2]

I believe Ince had a lack of coaching badges when he joined Blackburn so that would also have been a factor.

[pink_triangle]

It's not about change. It's about the potential of false and potentially damaging allegations of racism when it may not be the case.

[pink_triangle]

I disagree that he's a better leader but I suppose there's no right or wrong answer. I felt that Beckham had some aspects overplayed by the media, but as a player motivating the team he seemed outstanding.

I believe Ince had a lack of coaching badges when he joined Blackburn so that would also have been a factor. Dennis Wise had to go down to L2 to get a job at one point also.

[DomDom1984]

I could be wrong, but wasn't the MK Dons job considered a decent one at the time? Fairly sure their ambition at the time far outweighed where they were.

[kaosmark2]

In these cases of course theres an element of selling books. However I think Campbell has approached it in a sensible way. The other argument would be if you cant prove it, then don't mention it. In this case there is a risk the conversation is never started. Campbell is a good person to start the conversation as a lower profile player or journalist could not get the same publicity.

From what I have read he isn't accusing any individual person of being racist, but more the system. He is probably correct in this respect, there is definitely an underrepresentation of black players at captain level, I don't think its specific to the English national team but throughout the British games. I think in the premiership Bassong, Williams and Kompany are the only named team captain for premiership sides (15 %) when 25% of players are black. I have no stats for the other league but watching far too much league 1 - conference football it is clearly a pattern repeated throughout the leagues.

I think there is an underlying belief that black players don't have the same leadership qualities. Then again if someone said to me think of a captain and tell me what they look like Im thinking male, white, short hair, over 6ft tall, centre defence/midfield/forward, bit of a badge kisser, can handle themselves but not the best technical player on the team. Who knows if I was involved in choosing a captain if I would subconsciously let my perceptions influence my decisions. I wouldn't call myself a racist but I think when conversations like this are brought up, it allows me to reflect and think about my perceptions.

[pink_triangle]

I could be wrong, but wasn't the MK Dons job considered a decent one at the time? Fairly sure their ambition at the time far outweighed where they were.

[pink_triangle]

Though I don't think 15-25% is a statistically significant difference, and I'm pretty sure a fair number of clubs have black vice-captains (Tiote, Rio/Evra, Distin, I'm sure there's more).

[kaosmark2]

Agree the sample size is too small to draw huge conclusions. In one respect you could say theres not much difference between 15% and 25%, in another respect you can say one number is nearly double the other. Im also going on observations in the lower league and theres now way the percentage of black players captaining teams has ever reached the percentage of black players in total.

[Gucci Piggy]

Would be interesting to know what percentage of club captains are British, as well. If the majority of your team is British, a British captain is probably the best way to go, in terms of communication, etc. This could account for a lower than expected percentage of black captains, seeing as the majority of British players are white. I'm sure in the lower leagues the majority of captains are British.

[pink_triangle]

Would be interesting to know what percentage of club captains are British, as well. If the majority of your team is British, a British captain is probably the best way to go, in terms of communication, etc. This could account for a lower than expected percentage of black captains, seeing as the majority of British players are white. I'm sure in the lower leagues the majority of captains are British.

[kaosmark2]

I agree nationality would have some influence, however from.observation I don't think the proportion of black British and clubs with black British captains match. Also position may play a role with black players possibly over represented as full backs and wingers, positions which aren't generally picked captain.

[Gucci Piggy]

I agree nationality would have some influence, however from.observation I don't think the proportion of black British and clubs with black British captains match. Also position may play a role with black players possibly over represented as full backs and wingers, positions which aren't generally picked captain.

[kaosmark2]

Yeah as I say, it'd be interesting to see the statistics. I'm not saying that does make up for the difference. That's true about position as well, can't see the likes of Walcott/Young/Lennon being captains.

[pink_triangle]

Cashley's captained Chelsea and England before now hasn't he?

Also are black players playing wide roles more? I wouldn't have thought that likely.

[pink_triangle]

Nor Adam Johnson/Joe Cole/Downing.

[kaosmark2]

I think the proportion of black players in wing positions is more than centre back or centre midfield, but no stats to back that up, just general observation.