Michael Eavis Controversy

[Wooderson]

yup - one of them being how Britain robbed Ireland blind for centuries. There's a sort-of sweet justice to Ireland now robbing back.

But at the end of the day, the answer to robbery isn't to rob others.

[eFestivals]

Apple, like any corporation with decent accountants, can choose where they declare their profits.

If they choose to declare them in Ireland, they pay 12.5% corporation tax.

There is no special deal in place, as you stated, for them to pay 2%.

wrong. It's money directly generated in Ireland that is taxed at 12.5%.

The money generated in China that goes thru Ireland is tax free, and leaves Ireland collecting less than 2% on the whole amount.

Apple even go to the extent of taking out loans in the USA 9which they get tax relief on, you couldn't make it up!) to pay dividends to their shareholders, because the cash they do have (held in Ireland) would be taxed in the USA if it was repatriated to the USA to pay those dividends.

It's a completely artificial arrangement, and humanity gains nothing from it but Apple gains everything.

[Teddington]

That any nation can be described in such general terms is patently idiotic chief. Youre making yourself look foolish now, back off.

[Teddington]

Ha, thats kinda what I was inferring mate yes. And I fundamentally agree with your premise here.

[The Nal]

Unless of course you think that Google is investing in Ireland on account of it's vastly superior productivity?

[Wooderson]

Cry me a river...........

[ThomThomDrum]

it's a minuscule number compared to the Apple revenues flowing thru the country. You'd expect the number to be ion the hundreds of thousands by normal measures.

Edited May 24, 2013 by ThomThomDrum

[Teddington]

Thanks for this well rounded contribution.

[eFestivals]

Yes but Ireland's approach to foreign investment with companies like Apple has created employment for about 200,000 people in Ireland...........Big Pharma & IT companies have all come here to avail of the low rates, access to Europe, and English speaking educated staff.........

they haven't created any jobs, merely moved them.

That's a very important point, and one that cannot be ignored in a 'globlised' world.

[Wooderson]

But I'm surprised people are surprised! Every big corporation avoids tax where possible.

[Teddington]

Morality and capitalism don't make the most accomodating of bed-fellows.

[Paul ™]

Paul, do you happen to know if they were instructed to by the festival, or if it was their own doing?

[ThomThomDrum]

they haven't created any jobs, merely moved them.

That's a very important point, and one that cannot be ignored in a 'globlised' world.

[ie_johnc]

wrong. It's money directly generated in Ireland that is taxed at 12.5%.

The money generated in China that goes thru Ireland is tax free, and leaves Ireland collecting less than 2% on the whole amount.

Apple even go to the extent of taking out loans in the USA 9which they get tax relief on, you couldn't make it up!) to pay dividends to their shareholders, because the cash they do have (held in Ireland) would be taxed in the USA if it was repatriated to the USA to pay those dividends.

It's a completely artificial arrangement, and humanity gains nothing from it but Apple gains everything.

Edited May 24, 2013 by ie_johnc

[eFestivals]

Some may have been moved but don't be naive to think some have not been created also. Before Apple moved to Ireland they did not have a European office to direct their businesses in Europe. To make Europe a more profitable functioning market for them they needed to establish an office there and hire new staff. They did so in Ireland.

so what you're really saying is that they didn't have a financially viable business unless they got tax breaks.

If they hadn't got those tax breaks another company which was financially viable would have picked up the replacement business.

So it's a race to the bottom, where the only gainer is the company involved - and it costs everyone else. And no extra jobs are created.

The same can be said with many other companies operating their European HQs out of Ireland.

not if the basis of them being there is the tax breaks.

Further to this the big Pharma companies have wanted to increase manufacturing, but have reached capacity in some sites they have elsewhere in the world, so to set up new manufacturing sites in Ireland, creating new jobs, made sense to them.

They chose Ireland because it has one of the lowest tax rates in Europe.

They chose Europe to service the European market, but mostly to protect their intellectual property. The 'upstart' BRIC companies and lesser developed countries don't have too much respect for the mass-death causing intellectual property rules around life-saving treatments - and good on them.

Because there's nothing that Big (or small) Phama produces that wouldn't be produced anyway.

Or are you going to try to tell me that people only have an interest in saving other people's lives because there's profit in it?

But anyway ... no extra jobs were created by paying lower taxes, only extra profits.

[Teddington]

so what you're really saying is that they didn't have a financially viable business unless they got tax breaks.

If they hadn't got those tax breaks another company which was financially viable would have picked up the replacement business.

So it's a race to the bottom, where the only gainer is the company involved - and it costs everyone else. And no extra jobs are created.

not if the basis of them being there is the tax breaks.

They chose Ireland because it has one of the lowest tax rates in Europe.

They chose Europe to service the European market, but mostly to protect their intellectual property. The 'upstart' BRIC companies and lesser developed countries don't have too much respect for the mass-death causing intellectual property rules around life-saving treatments - and good on them.

Because there's nothing that Big (or small) Phama produces that wouldn't be produced anyway.

Or are you going to try to tell me that people only have an interest in saving other people's lives because there's profit in it?

But anyway ... no extra jobs were created by paying lower taxes, only extra profits.

[eFestivals]

The money generated elsewhere and passing through Ireland is not declared as profit in Ireland and this not liable for tax.

and it's not declared anywhere else too .... and the Irish govt is very happy to benefit from it sitting in Irish bank accounts untaxed.

It's a conspiracy to avoid taxes, and a conspiracy that operates with the blessing of a national govt ... and YOU!

it is not the same thing as the Irish government having an ongoing special agreement in place with Apple for them to pay 2%.

It is.

As untaxed money sat in Irish banks they have the moral right to tax it. They choose not to, and encourage Apple to keep doing what they're doing because Ireland benefits by it.

Corporates love to use the words that "Govts set the tax rules" as the excuse for their tax robbery. So it's perfectly true to say that Apple could have no moral argument about Ireland creating new tax rules and applying them to that untaxed money.

[mrtourette]

Genuine question. Do you not think that it is the promise of profit (for the shareholders) that drives investment into new drugs and cures?

Edited May 24, 2013 by mrtourette

[clarkete]

In 1986 someone hung a banner about Wapping and News International on the PA during the set from the Housemartins. I don't recall anyone doing much but cheering them on at the time.

Isn't the whole premise of this thread a bit flawed. He obviously doesn't manage every aspect of site security, he's got plenty of other stuff to do.

[Wooderson]

Corporates love to use the words that "Govts set the tax rules" as the excuse for their tax robbery. So it's perfectly true to say that Apple could have no moral argument about Ireland creating new tax rules and applying them to that untaxed money.

[jimmillen]

they haven't created any jobs, merely moved them.

That's a very important point, and one that cannot be ignored in a 'globlised' world.

[ThomThomDrum]

so what you're really saying is that they didn't have a financially viable business unless they got tax breaks.

[eFestivals]

Genuine question. Do you not think that it is the promise of profit (for the shareholders) that drives investment into new drugs and cures?

It's impossible to say that as things stand there's can be no correlation - but that's because we operate a world where such things are expected to be done in that manner.

Nurses go into nursing not for the financial rewards but for the health benefits their work has. We tend to think there's nothing odd about them doing so, and yet it blows the sort of capitalist theory you subscribe to out of the water.

And so the capitalist theory you're using to to come up with that question (where you expect the answer to be 'yes') can be proven to not be the only way that humanity can work things towards healthcare. And so your question is ultimately an irrelevance.

Like all things, things only happen if they can happen. No amount of money can invent a cure if there's not the knowledge to come up with that cure.

And for healthcare, just about no one acquires the knowledge to treat and cure others because of the financial benefits it brings them, but because they can. If some are well rewarded that's merely a side consequence of it.

The type of capitalism that operates in finding cures is about as rampant and immoral as it gets, and makes the bankers look like moral bastions. It's stuffed full of chancers who know how it works, and how there's massive payoffs for failures all the time (because just the merest sniff of success has the big boys come in with stupid money). The whole industry is a money making machine before anything to do with cures, but it's rarely those with the real skills who are getting the pay-off.

[ie_johnc]

and it's not declared anywhere else too .... and the Irish govt is very happy to benefit from it sitting in Irish bank accounts untaxed.

It's a conspiracy to avoid taxes, and a conspiracy that operates with the blessing of a national govt ... and YOU!

[Wooderson]

And given that I haven't lived there in years my complicity in the tax system there is a bit of a stretch.