The Dirty Independence Question

[LOCHLAND5]

[Comfy Bean]

10 minutes ago, LOCHLAND5 said:

Sunday Post reader for sure.

This is the lady who inspired Sturgeon to get into politics which may in turn see the end of the Union.

With this being about Scotland, are her 2 fingers not pointing the wrong way :-)

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, LJS said:

May I suggest we keep BTL nutjobs out of this?

Is that because you think your fellow indy supporters are nutters, or because your fellow indy supporters are those you denied existed?

Just in case it's passing you by, those blood and soil comments are not from just one person but very many and quite typical for snippers, and without a single snipper calling them out for it.

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, LJS said:

Some of us don't see living in a post-Brexit perma-Tory,narrow minded, bigoted,  isolationist UK as a "very pleasant experience"

but see much bigger cuts than the tories would make as a great thing....?

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Spot on. As has been discussed here already, the narrative will be around the type of Country we want Scotland to be.

you'll be campaigning for a poorer Scotland?

And there was me thinking you planned to lie to your countrymen to win.

I'll look forwards to seeing you put forwards "vote indy, vote yourself poorer"

 

9 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

So much for Sturgeon bluffing. There were those who said she would bottle it lol.

She's been bottling it for the last 9 months, or didn't you notice that?

Next up will you tell us she's only having an indyref because of brexit, and not because that's everything she stands for...?

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I enjoyed the debate, the turnout and how engaged folk got, especially the youngsters. Credit due to both sides for that.

did they engage with the fact that the 2014 white paper was full of lies?

I guess not, which was probably why you enjoyed the debate, and enjoyed lying to them just like Salmond.

 

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, LJS said:

it's OK comfy ... apparently we all want the oldies to die. The Cybernat death squads will shortly be mobilised.

On a serious note, I have some concerns about the nature of the debate this time although most of my concerns are about the tone of the debate coming from Politicians in favour of the Union. After the Orchestrated " I never said the SNP are racist" nonsense from Khan, I seriously hope we hear no more of this - there are enough nutjobs on both sides BTL. I really hope our elected politicians on both sides can maintain a higher standard.

the elected politicians probably can keep their standards up - tho we won't see Sturgeon calling out the racists on her own side, will we?

As for pretending that there's not a significant chunk within the indy supporters, you can GTF. If they do racist - and they do, regularly (and no other snippers call them out for it!) - then I reserve the right to highlight it.

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, LJS said:

Perhaps, you need a clearer understanding of how powers were divided under devolution

 

 

what don't you understand about the words you posted?

" Any matter not explicitly listed in the Act is implicitly devolved to the Scottish Parliament."

The stuff that's currently at the EU is neither implicitly or explicitly devolved to the Scottish Parliament.

Cos if it was, it would already be devolved to the Scottish Parliament.

It's not already devolved to the Scottish Parliament, and that's because it's not devolved in that act.

Sturgeon's whole basis for another ref - that Scotland is already sovereign (which it isn't) - is being repeated to build this myth, when it's simply a lie. Scotland *only* has the powers that are devolved to it, and a want for more doesn't mean it already has that more.

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, LJS said:

I'll happily take some honest and open debate about the sort of country we want to live in in exchange

a poorer one.

But you don't want to debate that honestly and openly. 

[russycarps]

8 hours ago, LJS said:

 

I don't have any rabid nationalism

Funniest post of the thread.

'Independence no matter the cost'. It doesn't get more fanatical than that.

You raving nationalists are exactly the same as the Brexiteers. The fact you people deny it would be amusing if the consequences for the Scottish poor weren't so dire

It's sad to see how aggressive this thread has got already. I've no idea what the weekends fist fighting had to do with this thread, what a curious thing to bring up. Just putting the thought in people's minds I guess. A common tactic.

The next 24 months are going to be hell for the sane of mind in Scotland.

 

 

 

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, LJS said:

 I feel sorry for you guys trying to stop the endless tide of racist bigoted intolerance sweeping your country. I'll happily take some honest and open debate about the sort of country we want to live in in exchange.

 

Noting that you have kindly offered to post

 " a collection of lies by snippers,"

I will gladly and free of charge be offering the same service for baseless claims from you. The above is the first one. The greens are not breaking any manifesto pledge. here is what there 2016 Holyrood manifesto said.

 "With a turnout of 85%, the Independence Referendum affirmed a simple but often forgotten political truth: if people are invited to take part in an important decision about the future of their country, they will – and in huge numbers. But that spirit will wither away unless citizens are again invited to play a direct role in public decision-making. We want to create a radical and inclusive democracy that puts citizens at the heart of the democratic process, both at local and national level.

In a second referendum the Scottish Greens will campaign for independence. Until then we can build a bolder democracy, and open up our institutions for greater citizen participation while pushing for stronger powers for Holyrood."

https://greens.scot/scotland-can/be-a-bolder-democracy

I think it is important that you make sure of your facts, Neil, since you set great store by them.

As you yourself said

"Get ready for endless bullshit and diversion from the facts, proper Trump styleee."

 

I see you haven't bothered to read beyond the first page.

With habits like that, it's no wonder you're so full of shit.

What did I say? I said snippers could lie about what the Greens had in their manifesto, and you have.

Cos it also said this (page 36, if you're wondering)....

Citizens should be able to play a direct role in the legislative process: on presenting a petition signed by an appropriate number of voters, citizens should be able to trigger a vote on important issues of devolved responsibility. As we proposed on the one year anniversary of the Independence Referendum, this is the Scottish Greens’ preferred way of deciding to hold a second referendum on Independence.

If a new referendum is to happen, it should come about by the will of the people, and not be driven by calculations of party political advantage. In such a referendum the Scottish Greens will campaign for independence.

 

oh dear.

 

[LJS]

15 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

the elected politicians probably can keep their standards up - tho we won't see Sturgeon calling out the racists on her own side, will we?

As for pretending that there's not a significant chunk within the indy supporters, you can GTF. If they do racist - and they do, regularly (and no other snippers call them out for it!) - then I reserve the right to highlight it.

No one on here has ever denied the existence of these nutters. As happened yesterday, I will undertake to match ever Nat nutter you post with a yoon zoomer.

Or we could all be grown up & accept that these nutters are a minority & actually discuss Indy.

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, LJS said:

I notice Theresa May accused the SNP of tunnel vision

 

Neat response here

 

 

because brexit is foolish to decimate a huge chunk of international trade, so in response the SNP plan to decimate an even bigger chunk of internatioanl trade?

I spent last night laughing my socks off, at the number of snippers who are saying "we can be as stupid as the brexiters too". 

What's so weird about that is that it's the most sensible thing I've seen from snippers.

Lie as big as Trump, because nothing is more important to farage and snippers as sovereignty.

Edited March 14, 2017 by eFestivals

[LJS]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I see you haven't bothered to read beyond the first page.

With habits like that, it's no wonder you're so full of shit.

What did I say? I said snippers could lie about what the Greens had in their manifesto, and you have.

Cos it also said this (page 36, if you're wondering)....

 

 

 

oh dear.

 

You understand the word "preferred" I take it.

 

Oh dear.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, LJS said:

No one on here has ever denied the existence of these nutters. As happened yesterday, I will undertake to match ever Nat nutter you post with a yoon zoomer.

Or we could all be grown up & accept that these nutters are a minority & actually discuss Indy.

The yoon nutters get called out.

The snipper nutters never do, because the other snipper nutters don't even realise they're nutters.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, LJS said:

You understand the word "preferred" I take it.

 

Oh dear.

Yes, the preference they'll be going against.

Not that had many anyway, but I know for sure they've lost themselves plenty of voters by suddenly saying that they don't care for their previously claimed democratic principles after all.

[LJS]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Yes, the preference they'll be going against.

I prefer cheese to chocolate. However if you offer me chocolate I will be glad to accept. (Unless it's a bounty. I don't like them)

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Not that had many anyway, but I know for sure they've lost themselves plenty of voters by suddenly saying that they don't care for their previously claimed democratic principles after all.

You know this for sure?

Care to share how?

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, LJS said:

You know this for sure?

Care to share how?

from people I've seen who are disappointed that the Greens didn't mean what they said.

For some people democracy is more important than politics.

Why are you having an problem with recognising that even plenty who support indy don't support another indyref right now?

Edited March 14, 2017 by eFestivals

[LJS]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

from people I've seen who are disappointed that the Greens didn't mean what they said.

For some people democracy is more important than politics.

Why are you having an problem with recognising that even plenty who support indy don't support another indyref right now?

And other people might be more likely to vote green as a result of the greens stance.

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, LJS said:

And other people might be more likely to vote green as a result of the greens stance.

their stance is about much more than just being green.

One of their stances was about participatory democracy, such as referendums being driven by public will and not political posturing.

They even put that stance in their manifesto, which I quoted above, and which makes their stated position clear.

Only it's turned out that their stated position was a lie.

(and you took on my challenge, and lied about it yourself :lol:)

What facts are you finding difficult?

[eFestivals]

15 minutes ago, LJS said:

And other people might be more likely to vote green as a result of the greens stance.

and some people vote indy because

1. tories

2. english

3. westminster

4. Scotland is exceptional

5. "... because ... Scotland"

6. because of the lies people like you spread.

And you vote indy because? Indy!

Other people think about other things, such as how big dreams might be paid for.

 

Edited March 14, 2017 by eFestivals

[LJS]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

their stance is about much more than just being green.

One of their stances was about participatory democracy, such as referendums being driven by public will and not political posturing.

They even put that stance in their manifesto, which I quoted above, and which makes their stated position clear.

Only it's turned out that their stated position was a lie.

(and you took on my challenge, and lied about it yourself :lol:)

What facts are you finding difficult?

None. What definitions are you preferring to ignore?

[eFestivals]

Just now, LJS said:

None. What definitions are you preferring to ignore?

None at all. 

They want a ref, but - this part is just as relevant - they said they'd support one in specific circumstances, and not in all circumstances.

You know, different to Sturgeon, where indy is the one and only thing which motivates her.

[LJS]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

None at all. 

They want a ref, but - this part is just as relevant - they said they'd support one in specific circumstances, and not in all circumstances.

You know, different to Sturgeon, where indy is the one and only thing which motivates her.

They said they were in favour of independence. They stated their preferred way of getting to a second referendum. They are not the government so they don't get to choose the way. They have to make a choice from what is put in front of them. As they have clearly stated their support for independence, their choice is perfectly logical and consistent with their manifesto 

For what it's worth, my view is that they would lose loads more votes if they opposed the referendum than they will by supporting it.

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, LJS said:

They said they were in favour of independence. They stated their preferred way of getting to a second referendum. They are not the government so they don't get to choose the way. They have to make a choice from what is put in front of them. As they have clearly stated their support for independence, their choice is perfectly logical and consistent with their manifesto 

I agree they had to decide which way to jump, but the option of siding with public opinion and not their desire for indy above all else was open to them. 

Just as with you - and Farage - sovereignty is everything. More important than jobs, prosperity, looking after the poor, funding the health service, etc. 

Unlike with Farage, the SNP and the Greens won't be able to run away afterwards and leave everyone else to clean up the shit they've caused.

And that more than anything is why Sturgeon is so scared. Her dream is to be mother of the nation, and not mother of the death of the nation.

 

Quote

For what it's worth, my view is that they would lose loads more votes if they opposed the referendum than they will by supporting it.

I don't disagree, because most of their votes have fuck all to do with them being green and everything to do with them being the other party who support indy.

And when you have two votes and need an indy majority for your Farage-friendly sovereignty-above-everything dream, what ya gonna do...?

 

Edited March 14, 2017 by eFestivals