The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

You say a CU is certain, but you can't even bring yourself to say you stand behind what a CU means.

The emptiness of your claimed position and the claimed position of iScotland is demonstrated by your response.

this post demonstrates clearly why I no longer get into detailed debates with you, Neil. You constantly put words into my mouth

I do not believe I have ever said a CU is certain. I think my opinion on the likelihood of a CU has varied from quite probable to quite improbable.

My current view is that in order to appease the markets we will get something that will be awfully like a currency union but will be called something else. But then again if you actually paid any attention to what I have really said, you would know that I am quite relaxed on the future currency arrangement of an Independent Scotland.

[LJS]

.

And what I see in Edinburgh is a lot of bullying and lies or naive opinions.

Actually this discussion on this forum has been the most informative and rational debate on both sides that I have come across.

I work in Edinburgh, & I am passionately opposed to to bullying & committed to respecting the views of those who disagree with me . There have been a couple of folk on here have claimed to be bullied before but have not stayed around to discus it - would you care to share your experience.

I assume you are a no voter (?) please feel free to hang around & chew the fat with us here - no one gets bullied here - except us yes voters by Neil & we are kind of used to it by now

[Lizzim]

I enjoy a rational debate but so often they have ended in personal attacks when you disagree. I did have a really good experience with a completely random stranger in a pub in Glasgow who made some decent points. However most others I have observed have simply descended into verbal abuse when I express my reasons and they can't counter them rationally. I have noticed No supporters tend not to be as vocal and there is a suggestion that they are reluctant to be open about in case off abuse (albeit mild).

My husband is from Liverpool and has experienced mild but insidious abuse for being English and I can't accept that definition of nationalism. It isn't everyone but it is a worrying minority.

Incidentally the scouser prejudices expressed elsewhere on these forums are equally distasteful - even as a joke. There is a very thin line between nationalism and racism.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Lizzim

[LJS]

Thanks for that Lizzim, As I am sure even my opponents on here will acknowledge, i have absolutely no time for any form of racism and have constantly argued that it is perfectly reasonable to believe that a No vote will deliver the best outcome for Scotland.

As a Glaswegian, (exiled in the east) I am delighted you found a reasonable discussion in my home city.

If you were in my company and you or your partner received abuse from Yes supporters, I would support your right to hold your view as a priority over my belief that "Yes" is the right answer. Great passion has been aroused in this debate & there have been instances where folk have overstepped the line. That is regrettable but is certainly not confined to one side.

Yes there is a minority of anti English sentiment but once you get over the " support whoever is playing England" banter, I don't think there is much. But I cannot deny your partner's experience.

For me, one of the great strengths of Scotland is the way we accept & integrate people from all over the world. No right wing, racist movement has ever had any significant success in Scotland. This is not to say we do not have racism & racists - of course we do - my only claim is that they have never been of any great significance. This contrast with England where fearing, distrusting & blaming immigrants is often a votewinner.

I am also conscious of many communities in the the more remote areas of the highlands & Islands which would not exist today were it not for "immigrants" from England who have moved North & now sustain them.

So, I guess you believe we will be better together. Are you motivated by a belief in the virtues of the United Kingdom or a fear of the unknown?

[LJS]

Gordon Brown promising to Campaign for more powers for Scotland if they vote no...

I think some of the UK are starting to hope the Scots vote yes...

It's dead funny how they are all suddenly falling over each other to give us more powers when they could have had that option on the ballot paper & killed indy stone dead. Even if the No Thanky Belters do scrape home, I think their campaign will be taught in Universities across the world for years to come as the most pathetic, inept & inneffective in recent political history.

Step forward Lord Darling of Toothskin

[LJS]

no idea who this is ... but I like him

[LJS]

we haven't had a song on here for a while

so here is one

[Lizzim]

Ah LJS I see we have something in common, I too am an exiled Glaswegian. As to "fear", well I just don't buy into the "Flavor Juice" rhetoric. I have nothing to fear, I will be ok one way or the other as will most folk. Some part of me is curious to see how it would work out in cold reality but I seriously can't see it making any real difference. It ain't governments that cause the problems and all politicians lie. Even my 16 year old nephew has worked that one out.

And don't get me started on Wallace and Robert the Bruce Freedom romantic nonsense, that was 700 years ago and Bruce didnt even think of himself as Scottish. Half the electorate had never heard of them until Mel Gibson came along.

My biggest worry at the moment is trying for Glastonbury tickets... Will I be an overseas buyer by then. :-)

[LJS]

You know, we have had 2 or 3 folk on here with kind of general complaints of abuse or harassment for believing in Naw.

I have always been keen keen to listen to them because I am genuinely concerned if stuff like this is happening & ... they have always disappeared. not quite sure what that says...

edit .... Lizzim this was aimed at you but you replied

Edited September 5, 2014 by LJS

[LJS]

Ah LJS I see we have something in common, I too am an exiled Glaswegian. As to "fear", well I just don't buy into the "Flavor Juice" rhetoric. I have nothing to fear, I will be ok one way or the other as will most folk. Some part of me is curious to see how it would work out in cold reality but I seriously can't see it making any real difference. It ain't governments that cause the problems and all politicians lie. Even my 16 year old nephew has worked that one out.

And don't get me started on Wallace and Robert the Bruce Freedom romantic nonsense, that was 700 years ago and Bruce didnt even think of himself as Scottish. Half the electorate had never heard of them until Mel Gibson came along.

My biggest worry at the moment is trying for Glastonbury tickets... Will I be an overseas buyer by then. :-)

I feel your pain Lizzim - few can understand the pain of a Weegie in Edinburgh!

I agree with much of what you say - I am not voting yes in the expectation of jam & Whisky galore. & I certainly hold no truck with the brucey Wallace malarkey.

I happen to think the current Westminster system stinks to high heaven. I cannot for the life of me see how a government elected by the people of Scotland can fail to make better decisions for the people of Scotland than Westminster does.

I don't know about your 16 year old nephew but I have 3 children - a 27 year old (not really a child ) who is massively involved in the yes campaign, a 17 year old who is passionately yes & a 15 year old who is equally passionate for yes. He of course has no vote - so at least part of my yes vote will be for him. Some folk on here have accused me of shitting on my kids. I don't know how you would rate that on the abuse scale.

I agree with you that all politicians lie & I have never bought into the "land of milk & honey" argument for indy.

I do believe we can hold our politicians to account better if they are nearer home & I would ask you to look at the level of scandals at westminster v. holyrood.

[eFestivals]

I have made the point many many times that what you see from Bristol is very different to what I see here. And what the UK media is reporting is not really an accurate representation of what is happening.

I see the same online comments that you can. They're fuck all to do with any organised media outlet.

They're the opinions of Scottish people, who say that anyone who doesn't vote yes isn't Scottish.

[eFestivals]

And of course what you are attacking is the record of the SNP government which is not what we are voting on despite your constant refrain to the contrary.

Nope, I'm demonstrating that the different social justice in Scotland isn't there. Measures are introduced that hit the poor to benefit the middle classes, and there's not a squeak of protest.

You said the white paper proved iScotland will have a successful future. Now you fully contradict it but say they'll be the same result.

You said iScotland would have greater social justice, yet Scotland is clearly happy to have less.

You said that iScotland would have better social justice, but you don't care that the economics say it can't.

You say this isn't a vote about Salmond, but you cheer him when he says a vote against him is a vote for the tories.

Etc, etc, etc.

The illogicalness of your own position is something you never notice.

There is no magical benefit by governing your own affairs. The magic comes - if it does - by governing your own affairs better.

You will never discuss how that might happen.

[eFestivals]

this post demonstrates clearly why I no longer get into detailed debates with you, Neil. You constantly put words into my mouth

If you would actually answer questions I've put to you, I wouldn't end up having to make assumptions for why you won't address them.

My current view is that in order to appease the markets we will get something that will be awfully like a currency union but will be called something else. But then again if you actually paid any attention to what I have really said, you would know that I am quite relaxed on the future currency arrangement of an Independent Scotland.

So you still refuse to accept that Salmond can be wrong.

What if he is? Just like Salmond, plan B doesn't matter, Scotland will be glorious even if it's bankrupt, the NHS privatised, or whatever.

Anything but Westminster is better for Scotland. Yeah, OK.

[eFestivals]

I assume you are a no voter (?) please feel free to hang around & chew the fat with us here - no one gets bullied here - except us yes voters by Neil & we are kind of used to it by now

Yes, I'm a terrible bully trying to get you to discuss facts and substance.

[eFestivals]

For me, one of the great strengths of Scotland is the way we accept & integrate people from all over the world. No right wing, racist movement has ever had any significant success in Scotland. This is not to say we do not have racism & racists - of course we do - my only claim is that they have never been of any great significance. This contrast with England where fearing, distrusting & blaming immigrants is often a votewinner.

PMSL.

If Scotland had anything like the same amount of non-white immigration as rUK has (Scotland has around one quarter of the amount), it's perfectly clear that Scotland would have much the same reaction.

In fact, social attitudes surveys strongly suggest that Scotland would balk against it more-so than the 'English right'.

Independence needs greater immigration (says the white paper). The majority of Scotland is against greater immigration (says the recent poll on the subject). Care to try and square that circle, or will you brush this inconvenient truth under the carpet too?

[eFestivals]

I think some of the UK are starting to hope the Scots vote yes...

by-far the greatest number of 'insults' or 'abuse' I see of yes-ers are from English people encouraging Scots to vote yes.

Sometimes they're rude, but most of the time they're not - so neither 'insults' or 'abuse'.

Yet even when the English are supporting those independently-minded Scots towards their dream, those independently-minded Scots decide to take that support as an insult.

It normally goes "we should get out of the union because of this abuse", without a hint of irony that the 'abuse' is coming precisely because they wish to leave.

There's plenty of comedy gold still to be found.

[eFestivals]

You know, we have had 2 or 3 folk on here with kind of general complaints of abuse or harassment for believing in Naw.

I have always been keen keen to listen to them because I am genuinely concerned if stuff like this is happening & ... they have always disappeared. not quite sure what that says...

Has there? I can't remember those.

But even if true, do they disappear to any greater extent than you do to any awkward question I raise?

For example, it took you months to answer the simple "what is a currency", and then you wouldn't stand behind your answer and discuss.

And there's plenty of other questions you will not answer. You won't even say that Scottish people will stand behind the CU you say will happen.

How will it happen if Scottish people won't stand behind it?

If you want English people to pay the bills of Scotland you need to be voting no. You need to understand what you're voting for.

[eFestivals]

I cannot for the life of me see how a government elected by the people of Scotland can fail to make better decisions for the people of Scotland than Westminster does.

Scottish exceptionalism within this civic nationalism? :lol:

Some folk on here have accused me of shitting on my kids. I don't know how you would rate that on the abuse scale.

The "you" was yes-voters in Scotland, and it was a "shitting on your kids" based on the majority opinion of Scotland's kids (which does not match yours).

But hey, just willfully misunderstand things and wrongly take offence. You could build a whole country's culture around that sort of thing. Oh, hang on...

I do believe we can hold our politicians to account better if they are nearer home

and yet you aren't doing so. All I hear is nasty tories, bad better together. Never a word about Salmond's blatant bullshit, his complete lack of substance, and three plan B's for currency but no plan at all for the country.

But yeah, moving the boundaries will suddenly have you all paying good attention.

Like you haven't while Salmond has already stolen your sovereignty.

Edited September 6, 2014 by eFestivals

[LJS]

PMSL.

If Scotland had anything like the same amount of non-white immigration as rUK has (Scotland has around one quarter of the amount), it's perfectly clear that Scotland would have much the same reaction.

In fact, social attitudes surveys strongly suggest that Scotland would balk against it more-so than the 'English right'.

Independence needs greater immigration (says the white paper). The majority of Scotland is against greater immigration (says the recent poll on the subject). Care to try and square that circle, or will you brush this inconvenient truth under the carpet too?

The area of Glasgow I grew up in has one of the largest immigrant communities in Scotland, primarily from Bangladesh (or west Pakistan as it was when I went to school). I will not pretend there was no racism - of course there was. But generally the two communities get on pretty well and over the years there have been very few problems.

Social attitude surveys are interesting. What actually happens on the ground may tell you more.

[wee_insomniac]

http://m.scotsman.com/news/opinion/letters/hardship-alert-1-3438203?fid=12994&isc=1&did=27c713f2ab5ff515a02e357bd17e1b7893758111&ctp=article

[LJS]

There is no magical benefit by governing your own affairs. The magic comes - if it does - by governing your own affairs better.

You will never discuss how that might happen.

Completely agree & if you paid attention you would have read me stating on a number of occasions that there is no guarantee that independence will result in a better Scotland.

All it is is an opportunity to do what Westminster seems to be institutionally incapable of doing.

[wee_insomniac]

And yet there are two very well known communities of people in Glasgow, who's heritage comes from different takes on Christianity, who are world renowned for not getting along...

On another note, I remember being in Glasgow when an England vs. Scotland football match was played about 12 or so years ago when I was walking with my brother and my brother in law by sauchiehall street just as the match ended... We jumped in a cab just to see a group of England fans running, being chased by a group of Scotland fans, being chased by a group of police officers... My sister was working in Monsoon on Buchanan street on that day and they had to lock the customers in the shop because of the missiles that were being thrown down the street...

How's that for tolerance?

[eFestivals]

The area of Glasgow I grew up in has one of the largest immigrant communities in Scotland, primarily from Bangladesh (or west Pakistan as it was when I went to school). I will not pretend there was no racism - of course there was. But generally the two communities get on pretty well and over the years there have been very few problems.

Social attitude surveys are interesting. What actually happens on the ground may tell you more.

You might have grown up in one of the more multicultural areas in Scotland, but the multicultural mix in Scotland is still hugely less than the UK average.

And I don't doubt that the problems are fewer than the raving right likes to think them as being. Polling in England shows that people think there's issues caused by immigration elsewhere, but that in their own area any issues are minimal - which is a scenario suggested by what you say you experienced.

The 'problems' are largely imagined by the right, the problems don't generally actually exist. But the attitude that there are problems does exist!

Polling of attitudes says that's no different in Scotland. Your premise about 'English right' attitudes being specifically an English thing is wrong. A rise in non-white immigration within Scotland to English levels will see a similar rise in the same 'English right' attitudes within Scotland.

PS: East Pakistan, you plonker.

[LJS]

You might have grown up in one of the more multicultural areas in Scotland, but the multicultural mix in Scotland is still hugely less than the UK average.

And I don't doubt that the problems are fewer than the raving right likes to think them as being. Polling in England shows that people think there's issues caused by immigration elsewhere, but that in their own area any issues are minimal - which is a scenario suggested by what you say you experienced.

The 'problems' are largely imagined by the right, the problems don't generally actually exist. But the attitude that there are problems does exist!

Polling of attitudes says that's no different in Scotland. Your premise about 'English right' attitudes being specifically an English thing is wrong. A rise in non-white immigration within Scotland to English levels will see a similar rise in the same 'English right' attitudes within Scotland.

PS: East Pakistan, you plonker.

Oops. It was east. It was a long time ago!

[eFestivals]

And yet there are two very well known communities of people in Glasgow, who's heritage comes from different takes on Christianity, who are world renowned for not getting along...

That's one example of sometimes-different focuses in Scotland to the same racist attitudes. As an Englishman who has visited Scotland a few times I know there's another particularly-Scottish attitude too.

I'm not trying to suggest that Scotland is worse than England for anything of racist attitudes. But neither will I allow a claim of 'better' such as LJS made to pass unchallenged.