The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

However, I would suggest there are legitimate concerns about the way the NHS is being run and of course if that results in a real term reduction in UK spending that will no doubt have a knock on effect on the size Scotland's block grant.

Well, of course.

But the funding of the NHS isn't being cut back as things stand and there's little suggestion that it might be in the short or medium term, and I can't really see that changing for the longer-term either. Most people are well-aware of the benefits that the NHS brings the country.

But that's not what the article is suggesting, and based on the many comments I've seen in the last few days it's certainly not how it's being understood.

There is now a myth going around - stated as fact - that the NHS in England is being privatised and that means that Scotland is about to lose all of its NHS funding thru the block grant.

(In fact, Ricky Ross also made this suggestion on QT a few weeks back)

It's economic stupidity at its finest, and from people who are stating that they know for certain how much better off Scotland will be when independent.

So either they are too-stupid to be able to make a informed decision about indy, or they're deliberately spreading lies in the hope of gaining more support for indy (from the sort of stupid people that I mention in the first part of this para).

[eFestivals]

It sort of is ... but go on Neil , you clearly have something you are dying to say... don't bottle it up any longer ... let it out... you'll feel better for it.

currency is a promissory note. It's not "blind faith" of payment in goods in the future, it's a promise of payment in goods in the future.

The promise is made by the issuing institution (ultimately the UK govt; the BoE is simply the agency that operates the implementation of govt policy, just as the UK army operates the implementation of govt policy).

That's a promise being made by the govt you're rejecting when you become independent - which means you are also rejecting it's institutions. Your own sovereignty means you have no claims on the sovereignty of other states (such as via use of their institutions).

On the same basis that iScotland is claiming rights to UK currency due to 300 years of involvement, iScotland could claims similar rights to the UK military due to 300 years of involvement - and hopefully you're more able to recognise just how daft an idea that would be.

(just to be clear, nothing of that is talking about the separate issue of assets - the tangible things like gold bars, and stacks of foreign banknotes, or tanks, planes and ships for the military).

Meanwhile, if iScotland did have a CU it would in-facts require a promise by every Scotman in Scotland to pay higher taxes to bail out London banks on the occasions that London banks fail (and fail they will do, under any regulatory regime) .... and that's something there's not a hope of happening. You won't do it, and unless you will do it then you are killing all possibilities of a CU.

[eFestivals]

[LJS]

Oh look!

Independence: Juncker ‘sympathetic’ to Scotland bid

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/independence-juncker-sympathetic-to-scotland-bid-1-3482266#.U8r_oXwtvHs.twitter

& still running on better no together thanks front page

Juncker Ends Salmond’s European Dream

Edited July 20, 2014 by LJS

[LJS]

currency is a promissory note. It's not "blind faith" of payment in goods in the future, it's a promise of payment in goods in the future.

The promise is made by the issuing institution (ultimately the UK govt; the BoE is simply the agency that operates the implementation of govt policy, just as the UK army operates the implementation of govt policy).

That's a promise being made by the govt you're rejecting when you become independent - which means you are also rejecting it's institutions. Your own sovereignty means you have no claims on the sovereignty of other states (such as via use of their institutions).

On the same basis that iScotland is claiming rights to UK currency due to 300 years of involvement, iScotland could claims similar rights to the UK military due to 300 years of involvement - and hopefully you're more able to recognise just how daft an idea that would be.

(just to be clear, nothing of that is talking about the separate issue of assets - the tangible things like gold bars, and stacks of foreign banknotes, or tanks, planes and ships for the military).

Meanwhile, if iScotland did have a CU it would in-facts require a promise by every Scotman in Scotland to pay higher taxes to bail out London banks on the occasions that London banks fail (and fail they will do, under any regulatory regime) .... and that's something there's not a hope of happening. You won't do it, and unless you will do it then you are killing all possibilities of a CU.

& what are they promising to pay us with?

Like i said, it used to be gold now what are they going to pay us with? Dollars , Euro's, or the are they promising to pay us with the exact same pound that we have in our hands.

Quantitative easing shows just how much smoke & mirrors are involved in the value of currency.

& of course it's all at eh mercy of the spivs & crooks who speculate on the international money markets.

[kaosmark2]

& what are they promising to pay us with?

Like i said, it used to be gold now what are they going to pay us with? Dollars , Euro's, or the are they promising to pay us with the exact same pound that we have in our hands.

Quantitative easing shows just how much smoke & mirrors are involved in the value of currency.

& of course it's all at eh mercy of the spivs & crooks who speculate on the international money markets.

They're promising to pay you with goods.

What value does gold have? It's useful in circuit boards, it's pretty, and, um.... that's about it. Gold has value because people believe it has value, and currency is exactly the same.

[eFestivals]

Oh look!

yep, another story where the Nats see hope where there's nothing to see.

One day the SNP will realise that the EU itself has no power to do anything at all except work to the agreement of 28 member states.

Juncker, iScotland's future hero, who has agreed with Barosso's words about iScotland and the EU.

Edited July 21, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

& what are they promising to pay us with?

Like i said, it used to be gold now what are they going to pay us with? Dollars , Euro's, or the are they promising to pay us with the exact same pound that we have in our hands.

Quantitative easing shows just how much smoke & mirrors are involved in the value of currency.

& of course it's all at eh mercy of the spivs & crooks who speculate on the international money markets.

> & what are they promising to pay us with?

Goods. When has the money in your pocket stopped working?

Yes, there's a lot of scam around currency - Sterling, or whatever iScotland might come up with. Nothing of the scams tho gives iScotland a right to the institutions of another sovereign state.

But the "promise" of currency remains very real and always delivered, as the last meal you ate gets to prove.

One of the reasons that the promise is kept to is that UK taxpayers properly stand behind that promise in the opposite way you've refused to state that you do each time i've asked you.

A currency is only worth something with an attached promise - the promise that the iScotland won't give (as demonstrated by your own silence) .... unless you are going to agree to pay higher taxes to bail out London banks and bankers?

Perhaps you'll only agree when Alex tells you to agree, if he gets the CU he demands?

How's that sovereignty going btw? "The people are sovereign" as long as Alex has firstly told them what to do?

Edited July 21, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Talking of sovereignty, has LJS spent the ten minutes it'll take him toi re-read the draft constitution, so that he understands that the people in Scotland have no sovereignty?

I guess he must have, cos LJS is politically active.

Or is that really only "politically active" like many in Scotland*, where the activism doesn't actually include any activity for their own brain, it only involves being told what to think by Alex?

(* and England too. Scotland isn't special at being crap at thinking for themselves)

Edited July 21, 2014 by eFestivals

[LJS]

As I have nothing further to add on the DRAFT INTERIM constitution I thought I'd post something mildly amusing. (at least I thought so)

The belief that Prime Minister Cameron will stop at nothing to prevent iScotland retaining any sort of national identity was confirmed later this morning, when it was reported that air traffic controllers for the entire British Isles have been instructed to prevent planes crossing each other's flight paths on sunny days, so that there will be no inadvertent saltires created in the sky by white contrails against a clear blue background. The head of National Air Traffic Services UK refused to comment.

[eFestivals]

As I have nothing further to add on the DRAFT INTERIM constitution

So in this wonderful new Scotland, everyone will leave it to everyone else to enact their sovereignty.

And there was me wondering why no one in Scotland was up in arms at the politicians having stolen all of the power and sovereignty so the people have none at all.

NONE AT ALL.

You've just decided that iScotland will be forever more shit than the Westminster you hate.

But hey, at least it's Scotsmen who are absolving themselves of all political responsibility, eh? That's so much better than when Englishmen do it.

And you'll get angry if anyone tries to take away your hope. :lol:

[eFestivals]

In Scotland the people are sovereign

Really? How are they?

No one knows, certainly not any Scotsman I've met.

[eFestivals]

As I have nothing further to add on the DRAFT INTERIM constitution

Ahhh, so it's only "interim", is it?

Unfortunately, in the interim you've handed all power to politicians. That's what the interim constitution does - gives all power for ever for everything to politicians.

You can't get it back unless they hand it back.

They can change your electoral system, and you can't legally stop them. They can end elections altogether, and you can't legally stop them. They can fuck you over just like Westminster does and you can't legally stop them.

And you don't even care.

[Comfy Bean]

Enjoyed this article and it`s talk of opportunity, ambition and jobs. Thought I would share it`s positive message on here as they don`t look like the type of men who are all about jam and racism.

Project fear will bring back the negativity in the morning .

I trust our young folks to come through and deliver a better fairer Scotland given the chance.Why would they want to stick with the Rule Brittania attitude. Still hoping that some positive momentum will build as I see NO thanks are still holding a healthy lead.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/open-letter-signed-seven-famous-3889002

[LJS]

Ahhh, so it's only "interim", is it?

Unfortunately, in the interim you've handed all power to politicians. That's what the interim constitution does - gives all power for ever for everything to politicians.

You can't get it back unless they hand it back.

They can change your electoral system, and you can't legally stop them. They can end elections altogether, and you can't legally stop them. They can fuck you over just like Westminster does and you can't legally stop them.

And you don't even care.

You are getting tiresome

I have answered this several times.

Try asking yourself again why you are the only one who has picked this up?

[russycarps]

How can the no vote possibly lose now they have this national treasure on their side....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/10980546/Tony-Blair-I-believe-Scots-will-reject-independence.html

(sorry for torygraph link)

[eFestivals]

Try asking yourself again why you are the only one who has picked this up?

Because I've understood what I've read, rather than falling for the first sentence and then stopped reading?

I've asked you: how are the people sovereign in Scotland. The one and only answer to that is "I have a vote".

That actually gives less sovereignty for 'the people' than the hated Westminster system gives.

Alex isn't a liar, but he lied about writing a constitution.

Alex isn't a liar, but he lied about publishing a constitution.

And on the day you vote yes, you vote all power to politicians in Scotland for perpetuity.

And nothing for 'the people'. Not a jot. Everything is subject to the wishes of the politicians. Even a constitution to replace the "draft interim" constitution is subject to the wishes of those politicans. Nothing happens unless the politicans agree first.

But that's no reason to worry, because we can trust Alex about the constitution, despite his lies about the constitution.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0045/00452762.pdf

3.4 The sovereign will of the people is limited only by the constitution

11. Executive

11.1 Executive power to administer and govern continues to be vested in the Scottish Government.

11.2 The Government’s power is subject to the constitution.

As you can see, all power is with politicians and nothing is with the people except for some meaningless marketing.

The *ONLY* prize of independence is sovereignty, and yet the people of iScotland want no sovereignty at all.

Alex's constitution gives less sovereignty than exists for the 'the people' of any sovereign state in the world except for dictatorships.

And you think that's better than Westminster.

[eFestivals]

Enjoyed this article and it`s talk of opportunity, ambition and jobs. Thought I would share it`s positive message on here as they don`t look like the type of men who are all about jam and racism.

I admire the ambition, but all realities are constrained by what can be afforded.

Don't be forgetting that Scotland costs more to run than the UK as a whole does - which means that to keep up with the UK as a whole, iScotland has to be be more financially successful than the UK as a whole - something it's not managed to be on average.

Project fear will bring back the negativity in the morning .

Why, what do you yes-ers have planned for the morning?

You've long stolen this mantle, with claims of:-

- punishment from England of you vote no

- a UKIP victory in 2015

- if that doesn't work, a tory victory in 2015

- the UK leaving the EU

- the imminent collapse of Sterling (which makes the wanting of a CU rather odd, don't you think? )

- the NHS in England being privatised, which will kill-off the NHS in Scotland (nothing more than gross economic ignorance to that one)

- etc, etc, etc.

But it's just the no-ers who are liars and negative, yeah?

I trust our young folks to come through and deliver a better fairer Scotland given the chance.

the polls say they don't want to, and won't.

Why would they want to stick with the Rule Brittania attitude.

Perhaps because they're not truly Scottish? After all, no true Scotsman would vote against indy.

Still hoping that some positive momentum will build as I see NO thanks are still holding a healthy lead.

I see that reality kicks in eventually.

Perhaps it's the dead parrot?

[eFestivals]

I see you've not mentioned the follow up story, where the EU denies those claims.

More laughably is this statement by "a spokesperson for the Scottish Govt", which says "Scotland is already part of the EU and as such already meets all the requirements for membership."

I see the Scottish Govt has never picked up a copy of the Lisbon treaty to read, to see all of the many core criteria that Scotland fulfils less-so than Albania.

(The truth hurts, I know. But it's still the truth!).

[LJS]

Because I've understood what I've read, rather than falling for the first sentence and then stopped reading?

I've asked you: how are the people sovereign in Scotland. The one and only answer to that is "I have a vote".

That actually gives less sovereignty for 'the people' than the hated Westminster system gives.

Alex isn't a liar, but he lied about writing a constitution.

Alex isn't a liar, but he lied about publishing a constitution.

And on the day you vote yes, you vote all power to politicians in Scotland for perpetuity.

And nothing for 'the people'. Not a jot. Everything is subject to the wishes of the politicians. Even a constitution to replace the "draft interim" constitution is subject to the wishes of those politicans. Nothing happens unless the politicans agree first.

But that's no reason to worry, because we can trust Alex about the constitution, despite his lies about the constitution.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0045/00452762.pdf

As you can see, all power is with politicians and nothing is with the people except for some meaningless marketing.

The *ONLY* prize of independence is sovereignty, and yet the people of iScotland want no sovereignty at all.

Alex's constitution gives less sovereignty than exists for the 'the people' of any sovereign state in the world except for dictatorships.

And you think that's better than Westminster.

I refer the honourable gentleman to my umpteen previous answers

Edited July 22, 2014 by LJS

[LJS]

I admire the ambition, but all realities are constrained by what can be afforded.

Don't be forgetting that Scotland costs more to run than the UK as a whole does - which means that to keep up with the UK as a whole, iScotland has to be be more financially successful than the UK as a whole - something it's not managed to be on average.

Why, what do you yes-ers have planned for the morning?

You've long stolen this mantle, with claims of:-

- punishment from England of you vote no

- a UKIP victory in 2015

- if that doesn't work, a tory victory in 2015

- the UK leaving the EU

- the imminent collapse of Sterling (which makes the wanting of a CU rather odd, don't you think? )

- the NHS in England being privatised, which will kill-off the NHS in Scotland (nothing more than gross economic ignorance to that one)

- etc, etc, etc.

But it's just the no-ers who are liars and negative, yeah?

the polls say they don't want to, and won't.

Perhaps because they're not truly Scottish? After all, no true Scotsman would vote against indy.

I see that reality kicks in eventually.

Perhaps it's the dead parrot?

Er...who exactly has predicted a Ukip win in 2015?

[eFestivals]

I refer the honourable gentleman to my umpteen previous answers

the answers where you avoid addressing the question, you mean?

In Scotland the person called LJS* has no sovereignty.

(* or anyone else.... you've given it all away, forever, before you've even got it)

In Scotland, the people like less sovereignty than is given by dictators.

Edited July 22, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Er...who exactly has predicted a Ukip win in 2015?

Endless yes-ers, if you care to read what yes-ers pronounce in all sorts of different places.

I didn't say the yes version of project fear was sane.

[eFestivals]

It's a good job that Alex is so trustworthy.

Alex only wants the best for Scotland and Scottish people. There's no Scottish leader would take the piss out of Scottish people by lying to them in the same way as Westminster does.

He didn't make up some bullshit about legal advice about the EU, and then piss Scottish taxpayers money up the wall trying to hide his lies.

He didn't lie about his secret meetings with Rupert Murdoch.

(I won't bore you with the very long list, I'd be here forever )

And now this....

Alex Salmond's government pressurised the country's independent public spending watchdog into watering down a report showing Scotland sliding down education league tables.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/10981681/SNP-pressurised-public-spending-watchdog-to-water-down-education-report.html

Alex doesn't have utter contempt for the people of Scotland and what they think - just as long as they think the same as he does and don't ask any awkward questions.

Edited July 22, 2014 by eFestivals

[LondonTom]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28192293

This was pretty intresting (alot may have already been covered in the thread )....but the rUK will gain almost 5 months on life expentency if Scotland leaves!!

Thanks LJS