Football 2011-2012

[kaosmark2]

No you're 100% correct.

[The Nal]

Quite a stat. Were Blackburn particularly solid, Wolves particularly poor, or just a thing of luck?

Or did everyone turn off MotD by the time that game came on?

[kaosmark2]

No I watched it. Was actually on before Everton/Spurs and Sunderland/Liverpooh I think.

Wolves are poor.

[pink_triangle]

Quite a stat. Were Blackburn particularly solid, Wolves particularly poor, or just a thing of luck?

Or did everyone turn off MotD by the time that game came on?

[strummer77]

Yesterday was one of those days where I managed to avoid all the scores. I find MOTD can be really annoying in terms of indirectly giving spoilers, for example yesterday lineker said just before the game "Blackburn have not kept a clean sheet all season", so you know they are pretty much guaranteed to get one or he wouldnt have mentioned it. Its also similar when they make comments about team x not having won or lost for y games or player z not having scored recently.

[kaosmark2]

Yesterday was one of those days where I managed to avoid all the scores. I find MOTD can be really annoying in terms of indirectly giving spoilers, for example yesterday lineker said just before the game "Blackburn have not kept a clean sheet all season", so you know they are pretty much guaranteed to get one or he wouldnt have mentioned it. Its also similar when they make comments about team x not having won or lost for y games or player z not having scored recently.

[pink_triangle]

It's the weird thing. In my lifetime we've generally had a very bogstandard eleven with a very good striker (bar maybe a year or so under Rafa when everyone was good). We had Owen, Fowler or Torres who could score whoever they played alongside. Now we have a team which any of those would have thrived in... but we've got no striker. We've almost completely reversed.

[kaosmark2]

Im not sure its just a striker, I also think your midfield needs seriously looking at. I think its worrying after years of gerrard playing 30+ games a season he will have 2 consecutive seasons not getting much more than 20 league games. My experience of football tells me that once this trend starts it generally isnt reversed. I think its would be dangerous to start next season with an assumption that Gerrard will be playing the vast majority and possibly consider him a squad players.

The term "squad player" is often considered an insult but its no different to what happens to many players as they get older and less fit. I think however at man utd it was a lot easier to turn the likes of scholes and giggs into squad players as they have grown up in a squad full of big names so never really had they power gerrard has at liverpool, despite being often rotated it however doesnt mean they dont play in big games. I think its going to be a lot more difficult to gradually phase out gerrards influence in the team, he wants to play every game and be the main man and this opinion is shared by the fans and media who are pretty much 100 % supportive of the player. This wouldnt matter if Gerrard played every game, however things have changed.

The role Gerrard plays is an important role, however if Gerrard is going to play less games. I think liverpool are a bit one dimensional and screaming out for some flair in the middle. The trouble is if you are going to pay decent money to bring that sort of player you will need to look to the long term. Its fine for half the season when Gerrards injured but a bit more difficult when Gerrards fit and you try and fit Gerrard, new midfielder, suarez and a new striker in the same line up. You could easily end up with a situation where neither gerrard or the new midfielder are happy to play second fiddle to the other. I fear liverpool may go for the easier option and buy another charlie adam type player to cover when gerrard is injured, who wouldnt threaten gerrards position in the side when fit. I just have a feeling Gerrard is a player who will react badly to the aging process as his influence decreases, but as I said its a process that cant be reversed.

[strummer77]

I think the other key thing needed is another holding midfielder. Both for when Lucas is injured and so Liverpool can play two when the tactics require it.

[Ed209]

Everton's perfect for Moyes. He knows it too. That's why he won't move on. He thrives at getting the best out of average players. Just don't think he just would do it with the big guns. His best signings have been the cheap ones, not the big ones.

[kaosmark2]

Think that's pure speculation on your part. He's hardly made any big signings, Fellaini and Yakubu are the only ones that really spring to mind. The way I would argue it is if he has made average players good, then what could he do with good players!? Certainly think he's deserved a shot at a more successful/wealthy club. I can't believe that someone of Moyes standing is happy to see out his days posting in midtable seasons with a club not giving him any resources. Football management is his career, he's good at it, and he will have big ambitions. Chelsea at this time isn't the right club for him, but I think he will be looking to move his career forward at some point soon.

[strummer77]

The way I would argue it is if he has made average players good, then what could he do with good players!?

Edited March 12, 2012 by strummer77

[eFestivals]

so the wheels are coming off at Spurs. An Arsenal win tonight (if it happens, of course) puts them one point behind. I'm starting to have trouble seeing Spurs in the top four now, particularly with the weird team choices and positioning 'Arry is doing.

There's an interesting piece on the Guardian's website today which reckons it's not the England job that's effected Spurs but a sense of relief and a deflation because of that from 'Arry not going down for his tax fiddling. It's a different take on things, but perhaps more accurate than the England job.

[pink_triangle]

so the wheels are coming off at Spurs. An Arsenal win tonight (if it happens, of course) puts them one point behind. I'm starting to have trouble seeing Spurs in the top four now, particularly with the weird team choices and positioning 'Arry is doing.

There's an interesting piece on the Guardian's website today which reckons it's not the England job that's effected Spurs but a sense of relief and a deflation because of that from 'Arry not going down for his tax fiddling. It's a different take on things, but perhaps more accurate than the England job.

[eFestivals]

I think many of us predicted that the wheels could come off at spurs and are a little surprised it has taken this long. Spurs are too reliant on a few players and have very mediocre backup. They also have a tactically naive manager who in my opinion is fine when things are going his way but cant even spell plan B, never mind implement one!

yup - I've been saying pretty much all the same thing all season, tho I'd started to doubt myself by the fact that they kept up their good form for as long as they did.

[The Nal]

Wheels coming off City too by the looks of it? Half time tunnel bust ups, players being subbed after 35 minutes etc. They looked rattled yesterday.

[eFestivals]

Wheels coming off City too by the looks of it? Half time tunnel bust ups, players being subbed after 35 minutes etc. They looked rattled yesterday.

could just be a one-off of course - it's not like Utd haven't had their own dip in form pretty recently.

Tho I reckon Mancini showed he's got about the same tactical nouce as 'Arry with taking Barry and not De Jong off after 35. He wised up later, but too late.

The one thing in City's favour has been sat in the back-ground and on the back pages for last 6 months - Tevez. It's pretty clear that the club wised up to the need of getting him back playing for the run-in quite some time ago, and while he might not necessarily make enough difference for them to win the title there's a strong chance he'll make a big impact.

Edited March 12, 2012 by eFestivals

[The Nal]

could just be a one-off of course - it's not like Utd haven't had their own dip in form pretty recently.

Tho I reckon Mancini showed he's got about the same tactical nouce as 'Arry with taking Barry and not De Jong off after 35. He wised up later, but too late.

The one thing in City's favour has been sat in the back-ground and on the back pages for last 6 months - Tevez. It's pretty clear that the club wised up to the need of getting him back playing for the run-in quite some time ago, and while he might not necessarily make enough difference for them to win the title there's a strong chance he'll make a big impact.

[thetime]

Citys next 4 games

Chelsea h

Stoke a

Sunderland h

Arsenal a

United next 4

Wolves a

Fulham h

Blackburn a

Qpr h

[eFestivals]

Utd havent had a dip in form in the league though. 24 points from the last 26 I think?

they might have sxtill picked up the points, but they've definitely had a dip in form.

Question around City is the same as before - when push comes to shove do they have the players who'll go that extra mile for the club?

You've asked the wrong question. Players at Utd don't go the extra mile for the club they go there for themselves, just as the club will drop those players like a hot brick if necessary for itself.

The difference between the players at those clubs is one of attitude tho, just not the attitude you're thinking. One has a team mentality of knowing they're nothing without their teammates (which is why Utd players have never [on average] rated very highly as individuals in fergie's time), while the other has a bunch of players who believe their individual skill is enough by itself.

[The Nal]

they might have sxtill picked up the points, but they've definitely had a dip in form.

Edited March 12, 2012 by The Nal

[eFestivals]

Happens every year. Not playing great and still winning.

not at all points - Blackburn, for example.

Good point yeah. Although Utd always have a good blend of great players/not so great players/youth.

I don't disagree. I wasn't looking to have a pop at Utd's squad, the point was point out that they're very much in the main 'team players' (because they lack the skills to do it by themselves) rather than a collection of the very best players that exist.

The result of that is that those players benefit themselves (rather than the club) by their contribution to the team.

The types of players that City has [as a generalisation] benefit themselves by the display of their individual skill. There's not the same impetus to play with the team, which means the club is more effected by their off-days as individuals than is the case with 'team players'.

In neither case do I feel that there's anything about "giving their all for the club" (something you said applies with Utd's players), it's simply the case that the club are the beneficiary of Utd's players playing for themselves by their contribution to team-play via the types of players that Utd utilises.

[The Nal]

not at all points - Blackburn, for example.

I don't disagree. I wasn't looking to have a pop at Utd's squad, the point was point out that they're very much in the main 'team players' (because they lack the skills to do it by themselves) rather than a collection of the very best players that exist.

The result of that is that those players benefit themselves (rather than the club) by their contribution to the team.

The types of players that City has [as a generalisation] benefit themselves by the display of their individual skill. There's not the same impetus to play with the team, which means the club is more effected by their off-days as individuals than is the case with 'team players'.

In neither case do I feel that there's anything about "giving their all for the club" (something you said applies with Utd's players), it's simply the case that the club are the beneficiary of Utd's players playing for themselves by their contribution to team-play via the types of players that Utd utilises.

Edited March 12, 2012 by The Nal

[pink_triangle]

I think the English spine for man city is a big problem for city. Hart is absolutely fine, however Milner, Lescott, Barry and Adam Johnson are europa league standard players in my opinion.

[eFestivals]

I just mean that the understanding they have of the club lends to better performances, for whatever reason, as they understand the expectation.

nah, I don't buy that idea at all. I'd say that all players go out on the field with the expectation of getting a result (the recognition that they might not get a result is something different to that).

I'd say it's simply the case at Utd that they're a bunch of players who know that their best chance of getting a result is by playing in a way that makes the best of the team as a whole, rather than trying to win it by themselves via some dazzling individual skill that they (as a generalisation) don't have.

With other clubs their skills as individuals is what's admired to bring them to the club, and then their manager lauds them as individuals, re-enforcing the idea to those players that it's their individual skills that the manager wants to see.

I reckon Fergie does it differently, and as a general rule forcefully tells his players to stop with the individual showing off, and to make use of the team. And it works because those players know that they work best thru the team rather than as individuals.