Football 2010-2011

[TheGayTent]

Have a feeling Chamakh, RVP, Nasri etc will be back Saturday and we may be on the end of an Arsenal backlash. Can't see us getting a win, if only because winning 4 home games in a row is almost unheard of at The Boleyn, Bridge or no Bridge.

[eFestivals]

Know it's Comolli's remit at the moment really, but think Liverpool could find it tough to make new "quality" signings until the summer. Dalglish is currently a caretaker.

I think most "quality" players will be deterred by that; uncertainty over who will be the Manager in 6 months or whether you'll be unfancied under that Manager.

Your words here is nowt to do with what I was saying.

That aside, I completely agree with what you're saying from one angle - tho as you say, it's Comolli's long term remit (which negates to some extent the supposed temporaryness of Kenny), and I don't think Kenny's legendary status is meaningless even if it doesn't have the kudos it would have once had - for example, I suspect that his appointment will have had Torres at least momentarily reconsider if he wants out or not (based on the reports before Woy was sacked that he'd asked his agent to find him another club for the summer), even if it ultimately doesn't change his mind.

But I can't see them getting any highly rated player before the summer. What they might manage is a very decent up-and-coming player who turns into a future star.

[Stash]

in competitions won (as I said, on a proportional basis).

[ampersand]

Dalglish has managed for about 12 years and won 12 trophys as a manager.

Ferguson has managed for about 36 years and won 46 trophys as a manager.

As I mentioned before Ferguson's win ratio over his 36 years is higher than Dalglish's for his 12 years.

Can I ask what criteria you used to establish that Dalglish is proportionaly more successfull that Ferguson? Even if you restrict it to 1st division/premiership titles. Dalglish won 4 in 10 and Ferguson 11 in 24, which is still a marginally better percentage.

I'm confused!

[eFestivals]

Dalglish has managed for about 12 years and won 12 trophys as a manager.

Ferguson has managed for about 36 years and won 46 trophys as a manager.

As I mentioned before Ferguson's win ratio over his 36 years is higher than Dalglish's for his 12 years.

Can I ask what criteria you used to establish that Dalglish is proportionaly more successfull that Ferguson? Even if you restrict it to 1st division/premiership titles. Dalglish won 4 in 10 and Ferguson 11 in 24, which is still a marginally better percentage.

I'm confused!

Sorry, I was meaning managing in England, and excluding elsewhere. Apols for the poor explanation in my last reply.

But perhaps I'm still wrong - it's probably the case (I've not yet checked for myself, having realised) that the numbers I'd worked from included stuff won by Dalglish at L'pool as just a player, rather than from just the years he'd managed.

But even if working on me being wrong (which I accept I probably am), from the numbers you give above he's still pretty damn close to matching Fergie (40% against 46% for just the the league) when most managers have 0%.

[Steve P]

Have a feeling Chamakh, RVP, Nasri etc will be back Saturday and we may be on the end of an Arsenal backlash. Can't see us getting a win, if only because winning 4 home games in a row is almost unheard of at The Boleyn, Bridge or no Bridge.

[eFestivals]

you're gonna have some f**ked up criteria to have dalglish coming out on top of ferguson.

For management:-

League: 40% Kenny, 46% Alex.

FA Cup: 33% Kenny, 20% Alex.

Euro: 0% Kenny, 8% Alex.

But if you make the error I did, and wrap in Kenny's playing days too...

League: 57% Kenny, 46% Alex.

FA Cup: 21% Kenny, 20% Alex.

Euro: 21% Kenny, 8% Alex.

Anyway, I apologise for the error.

edit: whoops - I've realised I've made another error there. The Kenny numbers are from Liverpool only. Time I gave up

Edited January 13, 2011 by eFestivals

[Stash]

Sorry, I was meaning managing in England, and excluding elsewhere. Apols for the poor explanation in my last reply.

But perhaps I'm still wrong - it's probably the case (I've not yet checked for myself, having realised) that the numbers I'd worked from included stuff won by Dalglish at L'pool as just a player, rather than from just the years he'd managed.

But even if working on me being wrong (which I accept I probably am), from the numbers you give above he's still pretty damn close to matching Fergie (40% against 46% for just the the league) when most managers have 0%.

[worm]

It DOES mean that West Ham were lucky to score that particular goal.

[ralph250]

No. I'm saying that if manager's skill and not resources count for everything - which some like to claim as the case at Utd - and Kenny is all that he was, then 6th is a certainty, and 4th a decent possibility.

(I'll make clear: I don't believe in reality there's any chance of L'pool making 4th. If Kenny does OK - and had won last night, their game in hand - then 6th is [or was] quite possible).

On resources alone, they're f**ked. The players don't look of good enough quality.

The reality is likely to be a mix of the two. I expect an improvement under Kenny compared to under Woy, tho I'm not sure it'll be much.

while my comment was, I think, this season (a lot further than a month ago I think), the squad that was in my mind when I made that comment (and might have been stated at the time, tho I'm not sure) was the squad as it was at the end of last season. The only real major change is the sale of Mascho (who might have even still been at the club when I made that comment).

I believe it's the case that LFC had more squad members at the WC than any other Prem team. That's a pretty decent basis on which to make a general evaluation of how good a squad is, I reckon.

While it's true that not many teams have a £20M midfielder out on loan, Spurs this very week have sent a midfielder out on loan who was once valued at that - which gets to show that they have their own collection of over-priced duffs too.

My comment on Spurs was in part based on their duffs - which many of their current players were being until 'Arry gave some a kick up the arse (and failed with others).

As I say just above, my comment on LFC's squad was for last season's squad.

Edited January 13, 2011 by ralph250

[The Nal]

edit: whoops - I've realised I've made another error there. The Kenny numbers are from Liverpool only. Time I gave up

[Benj]

I remember being at Upton Park once and seeing Everton being beaten 1-0 without there being a single shot being on target.

The only goal a deflection from a shot going wide (off Trevor Sinclair's arse if I remember correctly)

Worst game of football Ive ever seen live, terrible, terrible fayre

[eFestivals]

It's not. Following the posts above, I made the assumption you rated them 5th/6th.

At the time, I felt that was achievable - in part because of how (compared to previous years) other teams were and are dropping points. I wasn't believing they'd have fallen so far so fast.

But my ideas (tho at least one of which you've quoted wasn't meant in full seriousness) have revised over time, which other posts of mine made since those you've quoted there get to prove.

And along with Liverpool being as shit as they've been this season, I doubt many would have thought that the likes of Villa would also be doing as poorly as they have been.

And given the proximity of the table - 8 pts off 6th with two games in hand when Dalglish took charge, and in your words "if you look at the table, getting to 6th will be a breeze with just a slight upturn in form" - and hefty amount of the season remaining when Dalgish took charge, it seemed to me that your opinion of Liverpool's squad/resources matched what you believe Dalglish should achieve indicative of his skill level.

It was - at least in part - a view based on one of those games in hand (Blackpool) being one they'd win - I don't think many would have thought that Blackpool would take all 6 points of Liverpool, no matter how bad (for them) a season they were having.

Them losing that the other night has had me revise my opinion downwards. While the points that other teams above are dropping makes catch-up an easy possibility on paper, it ain't gonna happen if L'pool don't take the opportunities that are there.

My contention was that if you believed they had the 5th-6th best squad and they got 5th-6th, then what got them there? is it the Manager's skill or that they arguably had greater resources than the 14 clubs that finished lower than them?

You're taking two different statements made at two different times and putting them together, without you realising that those two different statements of mine have been made from me having changed my view of things in the time between them.

I did believe them to have the 5th or 6th best squad, I don't now. My comment made since - quite a while after - about Kenny perhaps getting 5th or 6th was about Kenny (perhaps) getting an improvement from the players. They're not two statements be be taken together.

You were positing to Worm mid-November how they had "three world class players to S'land's .... none!"

it's not a statement many would disagree with I reckon, despite the poor form of at least two of those three.

How can it relate to Fergie if you believe Fergie has the highest resources.

Because - contrary to you and others - I believe that resources are the biggest contributing factor to any manager's success, rather than the skill of the manager.

My point was that if it's not driven by resources, then (going from Kenny's record, and it's closeness to fergie's own [much closer than any other manger there's been in his time]) Kenny should get L'pool challenging at around the top - but with me not expecting it to happen, so showing that resources ARE the biggest factor rather than just the manager's skill.

How can he exceed those expectations? to prove "the best it can be, once and for all" whether his output is based on skill or resources.

at no point was I thinking that fergie would do better. I was thinking that if any manager's skill and just skill was what is giving him success, then Kenny would soon (tho perhaps not this season) be close on his tail .... but it's not something I expected to happen, as it not happening puts weight behind the resources idea and undermines the manager skill idea.

I just don't see how it can be indicative of any proof whatsoever.

PMSL - so nothing that might ever happen can ever show fergie up as not-as-good-as-you're-thinking.

And people say I have ridiculous ideas.

[eFestivals]

Not really comparable anyway, totally different times then. there was no foreign players etc etc.

I think the "different times" thing is very over-played. As Kenny said in his first interview, it's about man management, and that doesn't change.

Yes, there's now more info at a manager's disposal nowadays, but that changes little. Any manager has to apply as best they can the info they have to hand to get the best result from their players - that's not changed, even tho the info they have to hand has.

And I think the foreign players thing is completely irrelevant to any of this - within the pool of players the best resourced manager has available to pick from, (if they're good enough) they pick the best for their needs. So it's basically the same situation back then to now - Kenny picked the best players available to him* at that time, and fergie has picked the best players available to him* in his time; the fact that most are now foriegn changes nothing with that.

(* for both of course, on their own criteria of what is the best player for the needs of their team).

Most important thing for Liverpool now is that Kenny gets them playing good football again. I liked his emphasis of "passing and moving" in the interview the other night. Thats the way they should play but they haven't since he left the club. They play awful football and have done for 20 years. Hopefully he'll clear out the current set of useless donkeys out and sign some quality.

From what I've seen he's taking the opposite approach. He knows he can't clear out the players, so he's trying to make them feel loved, to get the best out of them via that.

[ampersand]

i'd disagree with liverpools world class players. gerrard is their best but i'd just say he's a great player! world class would mean i'm saying he's as good as xavi or iniesta.

[Alcatraz]

i'd disagree with liverpools world class players. gerrard is their best but i'd just say he's a great player! world class would mean i'm saying he's as good as xavi or iniesta.

[ampersand]

So there are 4 players in the world who are World class?

[Benj]

As a football fan you want to see Liverpool up there, but not too high though . They're such a bunch of moany c**ts otherwise, everyone owes them something, everyone is out to get them etc when in reality they're a mid table club with a mid table squad who play in a mid table standard stadium.

[Benj]

So there are 4 players in the world who are World class?

[The Nal]

Nooooooooooooooooooooo

Now the debate starts on people's opinion's on what world class means!

[eFestivals]

i'd disagree with liverpools world class players. gerrard is their best but i'd just say he's a great player! world class would mean i'm saying he's as good as xavi or iniesta.

Feel free to disagree with whether they're exactly world class or not, but hopefully you can accept that lots of people see those three as the outstanding players at the club (or with Gerrard, perhaps 'was'), and somewhere near the top of players for their position in world terms.

[Benj]

Feel free to disagree with whether they're exactly world class or not, but hopefully you can accept that lots of people see those three as the outstanding players at the club (or with Gerrard, perhaps 'was'), and somewhere near the top of players for their position in world terms.

[luckysalt]

Anything guna happen with this benzema to villa link that surfaced again?

[eFestivals]

If yoou're talking Torres, Gerrard and Reina, then you'd be daft to disagree. If the former two don't begin to show some kind of (consistent) form though, I think people will stop viewing them on that level in the relatively near future.

You can't live on past glories, or the odd day in the sun indefinitely

Yep, I am, and I fully agree with you.

Hopefully Torres will be showing his class on Sunday tho - and Reina won't have to.

[Benj]

Hopefully Torres will be showing his class on Sunday tho - and Reina won't have to.