Things that ur happy about

[kaosmark2]

Of course, it was aimed as much at Barry as it was you, but more just a general point.

Yeah, I wasn't taking it as a dig, just using it as an opportunity to develop onto a more general point about the nature of the current system.

[kaosmark2]

You never heard of the old saying "power corrupts" ?

What a well-articulated point that considers the detailed nuances of different political systems.

Try and think, please.

[eFestivals]

You never heard of the old saying "power corrupts" ?

And have you never heard what stupidity does?

[Spindles]

You really might want to watch http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01pfvns/This_World_Cuba_with_Simon_Reeve/

It is an interesting and unbiased view of life in Cuba and the results of the revolution, castro's retirement and the opening up of the socialist system to allow limited enterprise (you know, like they did in China, that communist state that is likely to overtake us all as the world's largest and most powerful economy).

Of course, you could also just follow the party line and believe that the only thing that has come out of cuba is repression and failure. A nation which was held basically as a cash cow for american corporations where the people were held in the worst kind of poverty, a nation which after the revolution caught up with and overtook the western world in standards of education and healthcare despite crippling sanctions.

But yeah, you can basically dismiss all socialism in history just because of the middle years of the soviet union, that's real thinking.

[eFestivals]

Show a system of governance that didn't fall pray to it ?

No, you show us a system of governance which falls victim to a pre-defined form of power-corruption - cos that's what you claimed.

Just as the form corruption takes varies massively within capitalist systems, the same applies within non-capitalist systems.

Which gets to mean that communism does not equal Stalinism.

But that's too complicated for your brain, I guess.

Edited December 5, 2013 by eFestivals

[Spindles]

No, it really isn't.

It might be an aspect of western society (and other cultures outside, I wouldn't disagree) but it is entirely cultural and not human nature.

[eFestivals]

I never mentioned anything predefined...

Oh yeah...?

It would... Communism failed... Move on

[kaosmark2]

I never mentioned anything predefined... But sooner or later power corrupts... Its human nature. Sure we could fight against our nature and be "better"... No one has done it yet and the concept that pure communism could happen without abuse is somewhat laughable given history.

I am so happy I'm not you.

[eFestivals]

Well thats laughable... So which governments haven't ever been corrupted to some degree ?

So there you have it. It's govts that corrupt.

Which of course gets to mean that Marx was right.

[eFestivals]

Communism as ideal failed.... It fucking did... Read an history book...

Capitalism as an ideal has failed to no lesser extent - read a newspaper.

Capitalism as an ideal is full of internal contradictions. That's not something that affects communism as an ideal (even if it's effected the implementations tried so far in practice).

That's one-nil to communism, in case that's passing you by.

[Spindles]

Well thats laughable... So which governments haven't ever been corrupted to some degree ?

Governments is probably the problem word there. The belief that all society requires government by authority is not held by everyone and if you can't understand that not every culture that has existed has not followed this model then you're never going to get that it is possible to have an alternative.

The answer to the question is that tribes, nations and other societies have existed throughout time which do not fit your model. Inuit society, for example, has a wholly different set of values than you would recognise, as did most of the american societies, such as the plains americans before the west arrived and brought the principle of 'property' with them.

Was Ghandi corrupted by power in your eyes? How about Mo Mowlem? Was John Smith, the labour leader before Tony Blair corrupted by power? Do you know enough about him, about any of them to make a statement about them? Not likely, but a lazy generalisation which blanket covers the whole of the human race is something you seem confident you are fit to make

[eFestivals]

But I am not sticking up for capitalism Its you who stands tall and proud next to something which has failed.

It's not failed. That can't happen until it's firstly been tried.

If you're not sticking up for capitalism then I guess that corporatism is your thing. Fascist.

[kaosmark2]

But I am not sticking up for capitalism Its you who stands tall and proud next to something which has failed.

So what system do you think we should seek?

[kaosmark2]

No idea.. Everything put forward so far has been done already and lead to fucking shite.

What's capitalism led to?

[kaosmark2]

It has and it led to China / Soviet Union, North Korea...The Labour Party WAKEY WAKEY

You're a true Reaganite.

[eFestivals]

It has and it led to China / Soviet Union, North Korea...The Labour Party WAKEY WAKEY

and it's led to Cuba, Vietnam, Venezuela and others - all of which out-perform the wonders of capitalism in many ways.

There's only one reason (you, in particular) like capitalism, because you display it so very regularly - and that's for the undeserved privileges it gives you over others.

If you wish to argue the "undeserved" bit, you can start by saying exactly why you have a greater right to life than others via private health care.

(And saying "money" is not the answer, as that is what gives you access to privilege, but not why you deserve privilege).

Edited December 5, 2013 by eFestivals

[kaosmark2]

Cuba, Vietnam, Venezuela

Such paradise...

They're not ideal (and I personally don't advocate adopting their systems), but a large proportion of their problems hasn't been caused by the system itself but by the USA's crusade against any communist society.

Edited December 5, 2013 by kaosmark2

[jump]

Doesn't Cuba have a better medical system than the US?

[kaosmark2]

Doesn't Cuba have a better medical system than the US?

That's not saying much.

[eFestivals]

Cuba, Vietnam, Venezuela

Such paradise...

Oh look....

Did I say they were less corrupt? No/.

Did I say they whip the arse of the best of capitalism in many ways (because they do)? Yes I did.

But hey, if you want to keep playing the incredibly-stupid-game, we can all join in with you.

Edited December 5, 2013 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Doesn't Cuba have a better medical system than the US?

just about everywhere has a better healthcare system than the USA - and most of those much better ones costing less than half the price (such as the UK, for example).

Meanwhile the capitalists are doing all the can to make sure that it stays as shit.

Funnily enough, such capitalist ideas hasve killed many more than Stalin ever managed via his different methods.

So we've found one thing that capitalism is better at, and that's genocide.

Edited December 5, 2013 by eFestivals

[kaosmark2]

Like the rampant corruption found in all forms of communisim

I was more referring to the problems caused by the unavailability of many important and useful products due to heavily restricted trade.

The corruption in the systems isn't unique to communism either.

[kaosmark2]

Me and a rusty needle is a better medical system than the US!

I misread that as "Me and Russy's needle" first time. I'm disappointed that's not what you actually put.

[Spindles]

What bothers me is the belief that because some have been corrupt that everyone must be. Barry always talks in absolutes, rather than understanding that the world is made up of 7 billion individuals each with their own motivation, he just assumes that everyone has the same greed, selfishness and entitlement but we don't. Some of us are exactly the opposite of that, with a whole different set of motivations that you'll just never understand. The reason for our existence is not the gathering of property, nor power and influence, the reason for our existence is to do enough in your life to have put more in than you have taken out from the world, so that the whole world (and not just you, your family, your town, your country, your species) benefits and grows.

[kaosmark2]

What bothers me is the belief that because some have been corrupt that everyone must be. Barry always talks in absolutes, rather than understanding that the world is made up of 7 billion individuals each with their own motivation, he just assumes that everyone has the same greed, selfishness and entitlement but we don't. Some of us are exactly the opposite of that, with a whole different set of motivations that you'll just never understand. The reason for our existence is not the gathering of property, nor power and influence, the reason for our existence is to do enough in your life to have put more in than you have taken out from the world, so that the whole world (and not just you, your family, your town, your country, your species) benefits and grows.

Very well said.