International Politics

[steviewevie]

Blimey..I was just thinking of the book..no idea that it was antisemitic.

[Neil]

i thank our lizard overlords for their intervention and for making clear how its being handled.

[kaosmark2]

6 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Blimey..I was just thinking of the book..no idea that it was antisemitic.

The book isn't antisemitic (to my knowledge), but the concepts within it have been picked up by antisemitic conspiracy theorists and used to perpetuate a lot of obnoxious bullshit.

It's one of those things, that if it had been said to do with US drones, is completely normal and makes sense, but wrt to Israeli drones/AI/targeting, it becomes slightly sketchy. It really f**king sucks for everyone in society that anti-semitism over the last 2500 years has been so prominent and developed so many tropes.

It's kind of like the things with Nazi symbols, they adopt so many different ones - and adopt them from other cultures and parts of mythology and history - that if you see one symbol it doesn't necessarily actually mean that person is a Nazi, but if you see 5 it almost certainly does.

I'm not Jewish, but I do frequently have to deal with racism and micro-aggressions myself, and I've listened to Jewish people about what they know to be tropes and micro-aggressions. It's just another of those things, that on its own looks like nothing, but if it ties into a further pattern, it's problematic.

[Neil]

3 hours ago, kaosmark2 said:

I've listened to Jewish people about what they know to be tropes and micro-aggressions.

me too, a minor thing, but i took the Palestinian flag off my watch(which i'd done as a symbol of support), and replaced it with a Ukrainian flag, f**k those Russians. 😛 

[steviewevie]

Anyway...I don't know what thinking was behind Hamas attack on Oct 7th, it was premeditated and planned so wasn't just an impulsive action. If it was to create conditions for a wider war in the region then it has failed...so far. If it was for Israel to react in such a way that it becomes a pariah in the world even amongst its allies then it looks like it is working. 

[steviewevie]

5 hours ago, steviewevie said:

Anyway...I don't know what thinking was behind Hamas attack on Oct 7th, it was premeditated and planned so wasn't just an impulsive action. If it was to create conditions for a wider war in the region then it has failed...so far. If it was for Israel to react in such a way that it becomes a pariah in the world even amongst its allies then it looks like it is working. 

and I guess it has helped create a massive future recruitment drive for Hamas or similar in the future.

Not only what Israel is doing disproportionate and morally wrong, it is also hugely counter productive.

[SalviaPlath]

18 hours ago, kaosmark2 said:

I'm not Jewish, but I do frequently have to deal with racism and micro-aggressions myself, and I've listened to Jewish people about what they know to be tropes and micro-aggressions. It's just another of those things, that on its own looks like nothing, but if it ties into a further pattern, it's problematic.

I'd love to go to Gaza (well I wouldn't but hey) and talk to a Palestinian family, who have lost their home, members of their family and have been forced into a refugee camp which the Israeli's are bombing, about "micro-aggressions". 🙄 

[kaosmark2]

23 minutes ago, SalviaPlath said:

I'd love to go to Gaza (well I wouldn't but hey) and talk to a Palestinian family, who have lost their home, members of their family and have been forced into a refugee camp which the Israeli's are bombing, about "micro-aggressions". 🙄 

Do you understand that Jewish people do not have to answer for Israel's crimes?

[SalviaPlath]

10 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

Do you understand that Jewish people do not have to answer for Israel's crimes?

Who said they do? Don't think I did friend. 

[kaosmark2]

Just now, SalviaPlath said:

Who said they do? Don't think I did friend. 

Then why on earth did you tie micro-aggressions into Israeli warcrimes?

[SalviaPlath]

1 minute ago, kaosmark2 said:

Then why on earth did you tie micro-aggressions into Israeli warcrimes?

I didn't. I was making fun of your "please be more polite about Israeli drone strikes" approach. 

[kaosmark2]

4 minutes ago, SalviaPlath said:

I didn't. I was making fun of your "please be more polite about Israeli drone strikes" approach. 

You're dismissing the impact of micro-aggressions and their dehumanising elements. That is how racism perpetuates and festers. 

To give a comparative possible conversation:

Someone brings up a stabbing.

Another person starts talking about gang violence and knife crime.

Someone then responds, using the word "thug".

Someone explains why "thug" is racially coded, why people should be careful about using the term, and how it ties into institutional racism, hatred, and is problematic.

There's further discussion of anti-black racism, including discussion around different micro-aggressions.

Someone then quotes that final phrase, and says "tell that to the family of this stabbed white boy".

When asked to explain how they're associating, that person then says "I was making fun of your 'please be polite about stabbings' approach".

You are banned for 1 month. Racism and minimising racism is not welcome on eFestivals. Educate yourself so you can behave after this ban.

[Neil]

7 hours ago, steviewevie said:

Anyway...I don't know what thinking was behind Hamas attack on Oct 7th, it was premeditated and planned so wasn't just an impulsive action. If it was to create conditions for a wider war in the region then it has failed...so far. If it was for Israel to react in such a way that it becomes a pariah in the world even amongst its allies then it looks like it is working. 

That would need hamas to have  considered consequences which they clearly didn't do.

[steviewevie]

15 hours ago, Neil said:

That would need hamas to have  considered consequences which they clearly didn't do.

I expect they considered consequences, but maybe they thought/hoped it would kick off with Hezbollah or even Iran.

[steviewevie]

Anyway, looks like Biden threatened to cut US support to Israel if didn't make more effort to protect civilians, so Israel have opened a border in North Gaza. 

[steviewevie]

looks like the red line was killing white people.

[gizmoman]

23 hours ago, kaosmark2 said:

You're dismissing the impact of micro-aggressions and their dehumanising elements. That is how racism perpetuates and festers. 

To give a comparative possible conversation:

Someone brings up a stabbing.

Another person starts talking about gang violence and knife crime.

Someone then responds, using the word "thug".

Someone explains why "thug" is racially coded, why people should be careful about using the term, and how it ties into institutional racism, hatred, and is problematic.

There's further discussion of anti-black racism, including discussion around different micro-aggressions.

Someone then quotes that final phrase, and says "tell that to the family of this stabbed white boy".

When asked to explain how they're associating, that person then says "I was making fun of your 'please be polite about stabbings' approach".

You are banned for 1 month. Racism and minimising racism is not welcome on eFestivals. Educate yourself so you can behave after this ban.

Thought that "thug" was of Indian origin, does it now mainly refer to black people? Hope it hasn't been culturally misappropriated! * SalviaPlath obviously can't now reply but It's pretty heavy handed banning someone for a month without warning, it was hardly overt racism, maybe you are a bit over sensitive.

*that's an attempt at humour, it case you didn't spot it.

[Neil]

22 minutes ago, gizmoman said:

Thought that "thug" was of Indian origin

correct i think.

[gizmoman]

On 4/3/2024 at 8:07 PM, steviewevie said:

Blimey..I was just thinking of the book..no idea that it was antisemitic.

 

On 4/3/2024 at 8:41 PM, kaosmark2 said:

The book isn't antisemitic (to my knowledge), but the concepts within it have been picked up by antisemitic conspiracy theorists and used to perpetuate a lot of obnoxious bullshit.

 

Then it's quite a leap to say you shouldn't mention a book because others have used it to justify their beliefs, by that logic we shouldn't mention the Bible, the Koran or the Talmud as many have used those to do much more than spread conspiracy theories. Won't be long before reading Harry Potter puts you on the naughty step.

 

[lazyred]

22 minutes ago, gizmoman said:

 

Then it's quite a leap to say you shouldn't mention a book because others have used it to justify their beliefs, by that logic we shouldn't mention the Bible, the Koran or the Talmud as many have used those to do much more than spread conspiracy theories. Won't be long before reading Harry Potter puts you on the naughty step.

 

The context matters as well. I googled both.  It looks like thug has racial connotations in the US though not really in the UK yet. I'm still baffled by Brave New World but it is about eugenics. I think it  might be mixed up with New World Order. My search returned a story about the new Captain America film. This was originally called New World Order but was renamed after a protest. The new name is Brave New World. So they might have picked a second dodgy name but there is no protest about it.

[gizmoman]

7 minutes ago, lazyred said:

The context matters as well. I googled both.  It looks like thug has racial connotations in the US though not really in the UK yet. I'm still baffled by Brave New World but it is about eugenics. I think it  might be mixed up with New World Order. My search returned a story about the new Captain America film. This was originally called New World Order but was renamed after a protest. The new name is Brave New World. So they might have picked a second dodgy name but there is no protest about it.

The context was clear in this case, you mentioned AI drones and Stevie mentioned Brave New World as a sci-fi reference, that's how i read it, never occurred to me it could be anything else, people are looking for issues that aren't there. SalviaPlath seems to have been banned more for criticising a mod than for anything substantive.

[steviewevie]

I don't know...if it has potential to offend then we should not go there I guess...Kaosmark did make that clear...someone obviously complained about it. The problem then became SalviaPath seeming to dismiss antisemitism accusations because of Israeli atrocities in Gaza.

[gizmoman]

On 4/4/2024 at 3:51 PM, kaosmark2 said:

You are banned for 1 month. Racism and minimising racism is not welcome on eFestivals. Educate yourself so you can behave after this ban.

Maybe banning SalviaPlath will be counter-productive, they might never come back and be out there minimising racism elsewhere, maybe a visit to the Efestivals re-education unit would have been better.😛

[steviewevie]

says a lot that post rate increases on this thread when there's accusations of antisemitism and people getting banned rather than anything about actual international politics.

[gizmoman]

4 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

says a lot that post rate increases on this thread when there's accusations of antisemitism and people getting banned rather than anything about actual international politics.

Sadly talking about the situation in Gaza isn't going to change anything, gets a bit depressing, forum politics is a bit of light relief, but you're right I've made my point won't derail the thread further.