UK Politics

[steviewevie]

With FPTP/PR the smaller parties obviously are in favour, but many within Labour are now, I guess because they think it would most likely result in centre/left coalitions rather than centre/right coalitions. Not sure how true that actually is...So as Ozanne says I wouldn't be surprised if Labour runs on it one day, but not when they're winning big majorities with the current system.

[steviewevie]

Apparently Starmer nearly quit after Hartlepool defeat..I wonder who would have taken over, I guess one of Rayner, Reeves, Nandy, Dodds or Streeting...and would any of them faired better? I would love to see Rayner in top job just to see how that went, press would probably have a field day though.

[Neil]

10 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

With FPTP/PR the smaller parties obviously are in favour, but many within Labour are now, I guess because they think it would most likely result in centre/left coalitions rather than centre/right coalitions. Not sure how true that actually is...So as Ozanne says I wouldn't be surprised if Labour runs on it one day, but not when they're winning big majorities with the current system.

i don't think they don't back it cos they win big with the current system, but because pr will see the left-vote fragment, same as it would the right vote, a split in social solidarity won't be good for the left. theres a lot of me-me-me about PR,  not about us-us-us.

Edited February 18, 2024 by Neil

[steviewevie]

7 minutes ago, Neil said:

i don't think they don't back it cos they win big with the current system, but because pr will see the left-vote fragment, same as it would the right vote, a split in social solidarity won't be good for the left. theres a lot of me-me-me about PR,  not about us-us-us.

yeah, I wonder if they would fragment...maybe. I mean both Labour and Conservative parties are big well funded machines, even under PR hard to get that funding and reach as a smaller party, but could happen I guess. 

Edited February 18, 2024 by steviewevie

[fraybentos1]

Quite clever of them to release this biography now and do it serialised in the times.

show a more human side to starmer I guess 

[steviewevie]

 

[Neil]

10 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

 

Lots of people using illness for early retirement.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

yeah, I wonder if they would fragment...maybe. I mean both Labour and Conservative parties are big well funded machines, even under PR hard to get that funding and reach as a smaller party, but could happen I guess. 

The Greens would get more under PR which is partly why their supports want to bring it in, same for the LDs too. You’d probably have Labour as the largest party a lot of the time being propped up by those smaller parties then occasionally a populist rising up but they would never get a majority which would limit them. 

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

 

If we fixed the NHS then this would go a long way to helping those people get back to work. These people aren’t sitting at home by choice, the Tories have wrecked the NHS and this is a result of that. 

[Neil]

4 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

If we fixed the NHS then this would go a long way to helping those people get back to work. These people aren’t sitting at home by choice, the Tories have wrecked the NHS and this is a result of that. 

Even the NHS won't keep employing people with long term medical conditions.

[Neil]

7 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

The Greens would get more under PR which is partly why their supports want to bring it in, same for the LDs too. You’d probably have Labour as the largest party a lot of the time being propped up by those smaller parties then occasionally a populist rising up but they would never get a majority which would limit them. 

Tails wagging the dog.wont get more left policies under pr. If other views would back then then. They'd back them now.

[steviewevie]

13 minutes ago, Neil said:

Lots of people using illness for early retirement.

got some evidence for that?

[steviewevie]

6 minutes ago, Neil said:

Tails wagging the dog.wont get more left policies under pr. If other views would back then then. They'd back them now.

I might vote Green if had PR.

[Neil]

3 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I might vote Green if had PR.

Splitter must have what me me wants without considering the wider consequences of that. It's what Thatcherism was all about.

[steviewevie]

Just now, Neil said:

Splitter must have what me me wants without considering the wider consequences of that. It's what Thatcherism was all about.

Maybe me me thinks what me me wants is better for us us.

[steviewevie]

plus, I did say I might vote Green, not that I definitely would....would all depend etc etc...

[Neil]

12 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Maybe me me thinks what me me wants is better for us us.

You'd only know it's better for us if you think of the wider consequences 

[Neil]

Fptp is a coalition of all different views similar to how pr is. If that grouping of views can't do what's best for us with fptp. That grouping of views will end up much the same with pr. The reason we end up as we do is due to the inputting views which stay the same in all voting systems if its the same voters.

[steviewevie]

6 minutes ago, Neil said:

You'd only know it's better for us if you think of the wider consequences 

Ok, thanks for the tip. Green it is then.

[Neil]

18 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

plus, I did say I might vote Green, not that I definitely would....would all depend etc etc...

The splitting of social solidarity will not increase solidarity in policies. the nhss is an example of solidarity in policy.

[Neil]

10 hours ago, fraybentos1 said:

FPTP gives mainly Labour OR Tory Govs as the 2 largest parties. Within that, of the 2 there are more Tory govs cause they usually get more votes than labour and win more seats, not cause FPTP generally benefits them more.

A vote outcome is the result of the input the voters views. They stay the same no matter what voting system is used.

Edited February 18, 2024 by Neil

[steviewevie]

7 minutes ago, Neil said:

The splitting of social solidarity will not increase solidarity in policies. the nhss is an example of solidarity in policy.

I'm talking about if we had PR. It's all hypothetical. Labour might not exist under PR, Green might have different policies. Just saying if we had PR right now with the current parties I might vote Green, I might also vote Labour.

Actually - this is it with PR, how would it work? How does it work in other countries? You vote for top 3, or just one?

[Neil]

6 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Just more garbled nonsense from the pissed up auld fella hanging on the bar in the pub.

Below, party membership by country. 1%. Third bottom. Thats what we looks like is it? Thats solidarity?

Nobody gives a toss about politics in the uk because nobody feels like their opinion matters because it doesnt. Imagine thinking that thats a good thing. You’d have to be out of your tiny mind.

No one cares about politics but pr will make them care. Don't care enough to change the voting system. So how will they care enough to change the system.

[Neil]

3 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I'm talking about if we had PR. It's all hypothetical. Labour might not exist under PR, Green might have different policies. Just saying if we had PR right now with the current parties I might vote Green, I might also vote Labour.

Actually - this is it with PR, how would it work? How does it work in other countries? You vote for top 3, or just one?

We would most likely have same system as Scotland. Where their politics is more f**ked up than Westminster. And claim it doesn't represent Scottish views 

Edited February 18, 2024 by Neil

[Neil]

And isn't green even with the greens in Govt