Women only venue

[The_Amazing_Oblong]

Can is open, worms wriggling everywhere.

[LondonTom]

11 hours ago, Bradders said:

For fuck's sake, a small group of people decide to set up a miniscule section of the festival to give women a free zone to have fun and discuss issues they may not feel comfortable with in a group of men and those men tell them they're doing feminism wrong.

Maybe we should have small sections for every type of group that exclude all others who not are not part of that group...Could extend the idea to the camping areas too. Just in case, say White Men don't want to be told by Black Females they are doing the KKK wrong...

 

Saying that, I don't mind what Shangri-La are doing, I'd imagine it will be much like the "VIP" section of heaven in 2013 where its more a token/making a point and if you really do want to get in you can with a small donation to charity for a wig or perhaps a pair of novelty breasts.

Edited June 7, 2016 by LondonTom

[KryziF]

Have some of the men saying the exclusionary policy is sexist considered that's the point they are trying to make. For once you are being excluded from somewhere and it doesn't feel fair.

This is a normal attitude for women to encounter and has been changing too slowly.

[CaledonianGonzo]

2 hours ago, LondonTom said:

Maybe we should have small sections for every type of group that exclude all others who not are not part of that group..

They're one step ahead of you and your scathing wit, here.  Hence the emphasis in the blurb on inclusion and intersectionality.  

There are, of course, cis women, often white, who think that such spaces are unnecessary - but, whether consciously or not, they themselves are often speaking from a place of privilege.  People can be oppressed in some relationships and privileged in others.

[CaledonianGonzo]

5 hours ago, eastynh said:

It gets its name from breast shaped hill. Mamucium is where it comes from.

Is this also where the 'chest' part comes from?

[CaledonianGonzo]

3 hours ago, The_Amazing_Oblong said:

Can is open, worms wriggling everywhere.

Or - a conversation. One which might be useful for some people.

Which is the point.

[The_Amazing_Oblong]

6 hours ago, KryziF said:

Have some of the men saying the exclusionary policy is sexist considered that's the point they are trying to make. For once you are being excluded from somewhere and it doesn't feel fair.

This is a normal attitude for women to encounter and has been changing too slowly.

I'm not saying you are wrong but I cannot think of anywhere women are excluded in the UK. There was a to do about some golf club a while back but other than that I'm failing.

I can however think of many pubs and clubs that do women only nights but do not do men only nights.

I can think of many pools up and down the country that do women only sessions but no men only sessions.

I can think of a chain of gyms that are women only but no gyms that are men only.

I could go on. Is it then true that women are excluded by men or is it more that they are isolating themselves ?

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, The_Amazing_Oblong said:

I'm not saying you are wrong but I cannot think of anywhere women are excluded in the UK.

they're excluded from being members of Muirfield Golf Club, for starters.

But it's not necessarily about 'just' formal exclusions. The whole structure of society has been defined and controlled by men, and in a way which marginalises women.

That marginalisation continues despite most men now saying they support equality - and so our male-defined society itself is what excludes women.

Why would women think that the way to achieve equality is do things in the way men say? By definition that's not equality, that's women being told what to do by men.

And why would women wish to continue down the same path that has marginalised them in the first place?

There's more to this than just what you think, and what you think women should have to comply with isn't - by nature - the equality you say you want for them.

[Tigerdragon]

39 minutes ago, The_Amazing_Oblong said:

I'm not saying you are wrong but I cannot think of anywhere women are excluded in the UK. There was a to do about some golf club a while back but other than that I'm failing.

I can however think of many pubs and clubs that do women only nights but do not do men only nights.

I can think of many pools up and down the country that do women only sessions but no men only sessions.

I can think of a chain of gyms that are women only but no gyms that are men only.

I could go on. Is it then true that women are excluded by men or is it more that they are isolating themselves ?

Then explain to us all, why so few women are CEOs, MPs, Prime Ministers, top paid athletes.

Is your explanation going to be that they are biologically different, that they don't try hard enough, or that their just too hysterical a gender to be given any responsibility?

No, its subtle forms of exclusion (that relate to types of peer pressure, upbringing, teaching, toys, male-made legislation etc, etc - something as simple as telling a little girl how pretty and pink she is, and a little boy how big and clever he is - just one example of many more). Do you really think the only way to exclude someone is to put up signs and explicit bans? 

When I exclude someone from something, I never make it that obvious myself.

[Tigerdragon]

34 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

they're excluded from being members of Muirfield Golf Club, for starters.

But it's not necessarily about 'just' formal exclusions. The whole structure of society has been defined and controlled by men, and in a way which marginalises women.

That marginalisation continues despite most men now saying they support equality - and so our male-defined society itself is what excludes women.

Why would women think that the way to achieve equality is do things in the way men say? By definition that's not equality, that's women being told what to do by men.

And why would women wish to continue down the same path that has marginalised them in the first place?

There's more to this than just what you think, and what you think women should have to comply with isn't - by nature - the equality you say you want for them.

This is an interesting point, and exactly the reason exclusive 'agenda-setting' spaces are (might be) important. How can difference be properly accounted for in deliberation alone.

I think the more interesting discussion for this thread would then be does this venue manage to be that in any sense, not whether it should exist in the first place. Its probably much easier to criticise from that angle, anyway. 

[russycarps]

11 hours ago, fur_q said:

Whist I agree that Glastonbury is far to white (but have no experience of parklife) you need to keep in mind that your experience in relation to the 'equality' of the festival is (if your profile is correct) very much from a mans experience, keep in mind that it's been said in this thread already that women often feel uncomfortable raising issues of sexual assault that they feel are rather 'minor' but a great deal of women are often made to feel extremely uncomfortable due to behaviour of men that many dismiss as being acceptable. I'm not suggesting that you engage or condone this type of behaviour but I think frequently we as men don't fully appreciate or understand the extent to which women this kind of behaviour impacts upon all women's lives. 

The amount of times my girlfriend and other female friends get groped on the london underground is utterly staggering. They are resigned to it being "just the way it is". I cannot begin to imagine what that must be like, to know that a horrible incident is inevitably going to happen at some point in the near future. And again and again.

I have absolutely no idea how the issue of sexism will ever be resolved - and I am deeply pessimistic it ever will be, it certainly wont be in my lifetime - but if this area offers even a crumb of comfort them that's great. Though it does seem like it is just part of the SE corner "story" as much as anything else.

 

 

 

 

[KryziF]

55 minutes ago, The_Amazing_Oblong said:

I'm not saying you are wrong but I cannot think of anywhere women are excluded in the UK. There was a to do about some golf club a while back but other than that I'm failing.

I can however think of many pubs and clubs that do women only nights but do not do men only nights.

I can think of many pools up and down the country that do women only sessions but no men only sessions.

I can think of a chain of gyms that are women only but no gyms that are men only.

I could go on. Is it then true that women are excluded by men or is it more that they are isolating themselves ?

It is about power, who has it and who doesn't.

Some women consider they need safe spaces without men. To exercise, because they believe or are told it is indecent to do that in front of men, or because they are made to feel uncomfortable by men watching them whilst they exercise. To go out, because they are harassed by men when they go out. To discuss issues, because they are patronised, talked over or ignored by men, see http://allmalepanels.tumblr.com/ . If there was equality this wouldn't be the case, this isn't women isolating themselves, it is women being intimidated by men.

Golf clubs that exclude women - Royal Troon and Muirfield - only in the news because they host the open championship, I do not doubt there are many other golf clubs that are men only but because they don't want to host major championships they don't make the papers. Not that I particularly care about golf, however when this is where men do business deals it is another way of excluding women from gaining equality.

Gentlemens clubs and Free masonry - again not something I'm ever likely to want to join but they are men only institutions where business and political deals are conducted that exclude women. 

My actual point was that women go through life being told you can't come in to this club its men only (or even if they are officially allowed are excluded in other ways). This is not something that men generally have to deal with.

I think the reason Shangri-La have chosen this micro-venue to be women only is to make a political point by making men feel excluded so they have to think about this. 

 

 

Edited June 7, 2016 by KryziF

[The_Amazing_Oblong]

Muirfield was the name eluding me.

The remainder is a little bit too unclear for me. Are you saying that feeling marginalized whether you actually are or not is the same as actually being marginalized. I think there are as many men that feel insignificant, I don't believe feeling marginalized is a women exclusive issue.

The argument I always come up against when discussing womens issues is ever the same. As a man my views are insignificant by virtue of being a man. Oh that just happens to be the definition of marginalized, who'd a thunk.

I'm still of the belief that segregation is not the way forward. 

[Winslow Leach]

8 hours ago, LondonTom said:

Maybe we should have small sections for every type of group that exclude all others who not are not part of that group...Could extend the idea to the camping areas too. Just in case, say White Men don't want to be told by Black Females they are doing the KKK wrong...

See yer da is creating moral equivalences between feminism and white supremacist organisations again.

[Bradders]

1 minute ago, The_Amazing_Oblong said:

The argument I always come up against when discussing womens issues is ever the same. As a man my views are insignificant by virtue of being a man. Oh that just happens to be the definition of marginalized, who'd a thunk.

Maybe these women feel you're not listening to their experiences and opinions fully? I've never experienced any woman/feminist dismissing my opinions on any gender issues just because I'm a man.

[RichardWaller]

11 hours ago, Bradders said:

What the fuck are you talking about?

 up vote for you.

 

Are the last few pages worth looking at...? Or shall I have a look through that DMReporter thing on Facebook instead?

[Uh-Oh!]

15 hours ago, JanieM28 said:

Are you the guy who w*nked in front of me on a train in 1975 when I was on my way from boarding school? And then came into his handkerchief when I suddenly realised what he was doing? I was fifteen years old.

Thanks for the memory!

Or, maybe, you're the 60-year-old actor who told me that he would 'very much like to perform cunnilingus on me' in an effort to get me into bed with him. 

I was 18 years old. 

Doubt it sweetheart, in 1975 I was only 12, but pretty sure theres an octagenerian actor out there you could accuse, or blame the ones already banged up

[eFestivals]

11 minutes ago, Uh-Oh! said:

Doubt it sweetheart, in 1975 I was only 12, but pretty sure theres an octagenerian actor out there you could accuse, or blame the ones already banged up

oh my.

 

[Watto1990]

11 minutes ago, Uh-Oh! said:

Doubt it sweetheart, in 1975 I was only 12, but pretty sure theres an octagenerian actor out there you could accuse, or blame the ones already banged up

And yet you're totally stumped as to why women might want a space you're not welcome in.

[Uh-Oh!]

23 minutes ago, Watto1990 said:

And yet you're totally stumped as to why women might want a space you're not welcome in.

Nah I appreciate you sisterz need a safe space to run to when youre triggered, after youve no platformed the patriarchy or some such 3rd wave, SJW BS, perhaps the energy produced from the whining can be recycled 

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, Uh-Oh! said:

Nah I appreciate you sisterz need a safe space to run to when youre triggered, after youve no platformed the patriarchy or some such 3rd wave, SJW BS, perhaps the energy produced from the whining can be recycled 

Yeah, good idea, they can add it to your own.

[MadScientist]

On 3 June 2016 at 3:50 PM, willsnewman said:

Ok, I'm all for equality. But it kind of irritates me a little when someone's idea for campaigning for equality involves inequality. Perhaps I'm wrong, and I'm open to discussion on the matter. But that is the first thing that jumps out at me.

It's not "campaigning for inequality" though is it? It's just creating a space for women in a mans world 

[Uh-Oh!]

Just wondering if Milo will be invited to speak

[MadScientist]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Yeah, good idea, they can add it to your own.

 Buuuuuurn 

Edited June 7, 2016 by MadScientist

[Winslow Leach]

6 minutes ago, Uh-Oh! said:

Just wondering if Milo will be invited to speak

If they tell him there's a blue tick in it for him he'll be packing his bags already.