What women (don't) want.

[midnight]

Sexism, Feminism, page 3 & all that stuff.

So, we've had a debate starting with "what should happen to page 3?" in the News Discussion Thread. It got a bit out of hand and people quite understandably got fed up with it. Yes, it is kind of very old news, all that stuff about women's equality and how far it got.

Perhaps we could have a new start. And as long as we don't get carried away with generalisations of our own experience (women are like this/men are like that etc), we shouldn't get unreasonably upset with each other. Famous last words, I know.

And I will be the first to admit that women can't agree amongst themselves (just like The Left of politics, really), one of my personal bugbears being Catherine Hakim, who advises women to use their "erotic capital" more to get ahead in the workplace.

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/the-womens-blog-with-jane-martinson/2011/aug/25/catherine-hakim-erotic-capital

Fire away.

[feral chile]

Sexism, Feminism, page 3 & all that stuff.

So, we've had a debate starting with "what should happen to page 3?" in the News Discussion Thread. It got a bit out of hand and people quite understandably got fed up with it. Yes, it is kind of very old news, all that stuff about women's equality and how far it got.

Perhaps we could have a new start. And as long as we don't get carried away with generalisations of our own experience (women are like this/men are like that etc), we shouldn't get unreasonably upset with each other. Famous last words, I know.

And I will be the first to admit that women can't agree amongst themselves (just like The Left of politics, really), one of my personal bugbears being Catherine Hakim, who advises women to use their "erotic capital" more to get ahead in the workplace.

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/the-womens-blog-with-jane-martinson/2011/aug/25/catherine-hakim-erotic-capital

Fire away.

Do men want sex more than women after 30? Or are men more likely to say thay do and women more likely to keep quiet about feeling rampant?

Found this article, which seems to back up the argument - certainly I knew tall men are more likely to be successful at interview.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wired-success/201208/im-successful-because-im-beautiful-how-we-discriminate

Edited February 2, 2015 by feral chile

[feral chile]

Further to the big Page 3 'debate,' this whole thing about body image generally.

one thing I have mixed feelings about is how to support women on a diet. When you see someone's status report that they're back dieting again after falling off the wagon - I'm never sure whether to encourage them or not because it might imply that women should all be stick insects.

And after reading Fat is a Feminist Issue years ago, it's a bit of a sticky subject with me.

We have conflicting media messages - on the one hand, there's Page 3, on the other, celebrities and fashion, depicting extremely thin models, all providing mixed signals on how women should look - and both are idealised versions of the female body.

So, how do you best support women? If it's a friend, I usually try to say something like 'if it makes you feel better, go for it - but I think you look great as you are'. But it's not so easy iit's a colleague, or deciding whether to signify social approval for getting with the programme by clicking on 'like' etc.

what do people think?

Edited February 2, 2015 by feral chile

[feral chile]

On a similar theme:

https://lifelabs.psychologies.co.uk/users/1536-sam-cleasby/posts/1119-why-i-am-giving-up-the-razor

[kaosmark2]

I think the skinny ideal, diet culture and fashion mags are disgusting. Both idealistically and in terms of attraction. Excessive skinniness looks just as unhealthy and unappealing as excess fat.

[feral chile]

I think the skinny ideal, diet culture and fashion mags are disgusting. Both idealistically and in terms of attraction. Excessive skinniness looks just as unhealthy and unappealing as excess fat.

It's not a healthy option, either. fair enough, if someone chooses to eat more healthily, exercise more etc., for health reasons, it's a bit more straightforward.

But as with most feminist issues, I'm torn between straightforward support - it's all about self determination, and it might be patronising to tell other women what to do.

But also, I am aware that I'm part of the peer pressure that promotes certain ideology, so if I condone it, I'm also part of the social conditioning process.

This doesn't just affect women, of course - I'm sure men face the same sort of societal pressures and idealised body image.

Edited February 2, 2015 by feral chile

[russycarps]

what is the idealised male body image this days?

It seems to me these days men's fashion is all about skin tight "skinny" trousers. Do men feel under pressure to be skinny nowadays?

When I was growing up it was all about having big muscles. Which thinking about it was much more of a healthy goal.

[kaosmark2]

It feels shite when there's a bunch of other blokes wandering round a festival displaying fucking 8 packs when I have no muscle whatsoever. I reject the idea of working out just to look buff though, I have the strength and fitness I need (not much) , it just doesn't show in terms of body image.

Never bought a pair of skinny jeans. I have leg muscles and a penis, no desire to chafe either.

[feral chile]

certainly, the idealised male body is now having psychological repercussions. Research at the moment is focusing on the links between muscles and perceived masculinity:

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/menshealth/feature/adonis.htm

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/08/21/bigorexia-men-body-image-disorder_n_3789260.html

[lost]

what is the idealised male body image this days?

It seems to me these days men's fashion is all about skin tight "skinny" trousers. Do men feel under pressure to be skinny nowadays?

When I was growing up it was all about having big muscles. Which thinking about it was much more of a healthy goal.

Apparently the current trend is the "spornosexual" look:

http://www.esquire.co.uk/culture/features/7588/the-rise-and-rise-of-the-spornosexual/

[feral chile]

OK....so the advertising industry/media etc. are promoting particular ideals...

Now...is the resulting pressure their fault or ours, for paying attention to it?

I know this isn't as straightforward as that, because you'd often need not to be a consumer, as products are produced depending on the current trends, making it quite difficult to buck the latest trends.

Edited February 2, 2015 by feral chile

[russycarps]

Apparently the current trend is the "spornosexual" look:

http://www.esquire.co.uk/culture/features/7588/the-rise-and-rise-of-the-spornosexual/

ha look at all the filters and photo manipulation used to get the "after" muscular photo. What a farce.

[metallimuse]

What women want?

Normally shoes

[Katster]

With regards to diets I tend to encourage women (whether friends or otherwise) to be healthy rather than concerned with losing weight. Unless they are one of those annoying types who are constantly on the latest fad diet but in reality either need to accept they are big or just stop eating so much crap and then lying to themselves. That sounds harsh but I hope you know the type I mean, and that I'm not being cruel, they're just a bit stupid...and wouldn't listen to advice even if you gave it so I tend to save my breath.

What women want? I dunno.

[Katster]

The ideal male body for me must be attached to an intelligent head.

[feral chile]

The ideal male body for me must be attached to an intelligent head.

Nice one

[viberunner]

The ideal male body for me must be attached to an intelligent head.

So, basically, the exact opposite of what makes a woman attractive?

(I'm joking and I'll get me coat & sleeping bag and I'll sleep under the bridge tonight collecting coins from weary travellers)

[Katster]

My first female love was Danni Minogue. I like to think my taste has improved since then - having girl crushes on Skin from Skunk Anansie and most recently Naga Munchetty and Monica Galletti. I guess I also like intelligent women

[russycarps]

The ideal male body for me must be attached to an intelligent head.

But in an ideal world that intelligent head would be attached to a skin and sculpted body?

[feral chile]

My first female love was Danni Minogue. I like to think my taste has improved since then - having girl crushes on Skin from Skunk Anansie and most recently Naga Munchetty and Monica Galletti. I guess I also like intelligent women

Suzi Quatro was mine. Suzanne Vega later on.

I'm conflicted - leather or brains?

And I can't be rational about long hair on a man. I'd have to withdraw myself from jury service if the accused had long hair.

It's not to do with fancying, I've known me show favourable bias towards someone who's simply told me they used to have long hair.

Edited February 2, 2015 by feral chile

[bunique]

But in an ideal world that intelligent head would be attached to a skin and sculpted body?

Surely both men and women can be credited with a little more smarts than that? While you (speaking generally - not you personally) might look at the media ideal of a body and think "phwoar" when it comes to choosing a partner in real life aren't most people sensible enough to look a bit deeper - your eye might be caught by a smile or eyes or whatever, but that doesn't have to be sitting atop a model figure.

[Katster]

But in an ideal world that intelligent head would be attached to a skin and sculpted body?

I've dated short stocky guys, stick thin indie kids, gym kings and average Joe's. The only thing I'd say for me is that I've never dated a blonde guy and from the looks of my taste in women I definitely prefer darker features.

[midnight]

With regards to diets I tend to encourage women (whether friends or otherwise) to be healthy rather than concerned with losing weight. Unless they are one of those annoying types who are constantly on the latest fad diet but in reality either need to accept they are big or just stop eating so much crap and then lying to themselves. That sounds harsh but I hope you know the type I mean, and that I'm not being cruel, they're just a bit stupid...and wouldn't listen to advice even if you gave it so I tend to save my breath.

What women want? I dunno.

I don't know what women want either, I just thought calling it "Let's debate feminism!" wouldn't go down very well.

As for friends & diets, or diets in general, it would be great if we could link weight to health instead of beauty. I'd certainly support a very overweight friend who wanted to shed a few pounds to get fitter. The frustrating dieters are the ones who are have a distorted body image: "I am a size 12 but I MUST be a size 10, or 8, otherwise I'm fat!" Then again, it's just a different kind of problem, there's something wrong with massive over-eating, just as there's something wrong with those wanting to starve oneself to silly proportions because some authority states that this is more beautiful than anythings else.

We should aim to be a size and weight that makes us feel healthy and able to do what we'd like to be doing (ie running up stairs, riding a bike, play football, whatever). There is a hughe variety in what is a healthy weight, depending on age, height, build, muscles are heavier than fat, so some really athletic people can be technically "overweight".

To me, the interesting thing is why people buy into this equation of beauty with being thin, particularly as it is so hard to achieve for many.

Apparently the current trend is the "spornosexual" look:

http://www.esquire.co.uk/culture/features/7588/the-rise-and-rise-of-the-spornosexual/

This type of article & related complaints from men usually make me chuckle at first, thinking "welcome to a girl's world, lads", or something like that. Then I try to check myself for being mean - things are developing in the wrong direction. No one is really better off if many men start to get as worked up about their looks as lots of women already are.

So just relating to this particular article, for starters, yes, it is obviously fake. It starts with a fairly normal looking guy (really, he isn't that bad, although I would have thought he's about 35, not the 27 he claims to be), and ends up with a change that no-one, really absolutely no-one would achieve within the space of 12 weeks, no matter what he does. That's always one of the problems with these things, telling people that, if only they could pull themselves together for a relatively short period, they could be so different. They refer to the change in Hugh Jackman's physique and use pictures, but that is a transformation over the space of what? 15 years, perhaps? That's doable. If you constantly work on your body and discipline yourself, you can achieve quite a lot (and I bet there's a bit of digital fixing involved here too, but still). But who wants to do that sort of thing with their lives? Mr Jackman does it, because he gets to play movie parts that reward him with fame and staggering amounts of money, but most people are not that lucky. Even if they discipline themselves into total bores (Imagine sharing your life with someone who lives on spinach and protein shakes and spends several hours at the gym every day. Is there really an amount of manly muscle or degree of female slenderness that can compensate for decades of this?)

But in an ideal world that intelligent head would be attached to a skin and sculpted body?

Don't know - I'd very happily settle for Jarvis Cocker.

In an ideal world, we all can make up some ideal person, the problem arises when we have unrealistic expectations in the less-than-ideal real world.

Edited February 3, 2015 by midnight

[midnight]

And I can't be rational about long hair on a man. I'd have to withdraw myself from jury service if the accused had long hair.

It's not to do with fancying, I've known me show favourable bias towards someone who's simply told me they used to have long hair.

Ah. Same here, as irrational as it is. I knew we'd find an experience we have in common!

[Katster]

Yup, I'm also a long hair on a man fan.

But not blonde. No.