Cat Stevens for Sunday Legend Slot.

[eFestivals]

I'm aware it's a cultural thing. What's so wrong with questioning other cultures' behaviours?

nothing at all, as long as you're not being imperialistic or racist along with it.

That means you should condenm the likes of Ted Nugent in the same manner as you condemn Yusuf.

That means that if you focus in on the religious beliefs of one performer, you should focus in on the religious beliefs of all performers.

Yusuf's religious beliefs get focused on because of what the religion is, and not because he's religious. You wouldn't even know what his view was towards Rushdie if cultural racism wasn't operating.

He gets targeted, and that then has led you to mis-represent what he's actually said, rather than give him a fair comparison with similar attitudes in the western world.

[Lad]

did the public kick up a fuss about those ads which were publicly visable in publicly read newspapers, in the same way they would undoubtedly do today? :rolleyes:The different response today is because of different attitudes today.

I don't think attitudes are that different.The establishment weren't concerned as now. The average person hated it. It's the same now as we can see with some shocking reports. I believe that they're not as efficient in covering up. It's difficult to prove it either way. Everyone used to think that judges always gave lesser sentences for sexual crimes than robbing. It was taken as a given that these judges etc were kid fiddlers, as the horrible term went,so it was no wonder. I wouldn't presume to know about your circumstances but it could have been different to mine so we are not comparing like with like.

[eFestivals]

I don't think attitudes are that different.The establishment weren't concerned as now. The average person hated it. It's the same now as we can see with some shocking reports. I believe that they're not as efficient in covering up. It's difficult to prove it either way. Everyone used to think that judges always gave lesser sentences for sexual crimes than robbing. It was taken as a given that these judges etc were kid fiddlers, as the horrible term went,so it was no wonder. I wouldn't presume to know about your circumstances but it could have been different to mine so we are not comparing like with like.

yeah, it's only the establishment that are paedos. Or is it gangs of Asians as well as the establishment? No white working class person would do those sorts of things.

[eFestivals]

it's a Cat Stevens thread... why would I be commenting on Ted Nugent?

I chucked in Ted's name, and you commented. Ask yourself for the why you did.

Yusuf also said, after being asked if he'd attend a demonstration where an effigy of Rushdie was being burned, "I would have hoped that it'd be the real thing".

which is exactly the same as anyone in the UK who says "string 'em up".

A law has been broken. Punishments are stipulated in law for the crime; some may think the 'official' punishment adequate, others may think it too harsh or too weak.

If someone says a murderer should be hung, it doesn't mean anything beyond that.

You're trying to suggest that Yusuf would stick the knife in himself given half the chance, when it's very clear from his all of his words that's not what he's meaning.

[eFestivals]

because you asked me...

I asked NOTHING. I merely put Ted's name into a post, spearate from all my other words in that post.

Have you also asked yourself why your response to Ted was lesser for the same wrongness of wanting criminals to be put to death, or are you mis-representing that to yourself in the same way you do when you post "because you asked me... "?

which I would also condemn

and yet you didn't condemn string-em-up Ted.

Ted doesn't want to kill people like Yusuf, Ted is merely "an arsehole" in your words.

and many laws are wrong, in my opinion. When they are, I'll say so. It doesn't make any difference to me whether it's a law that I have to abide by, or if it's someone else's.

But it does make a difference to you if the punishment is Islamic or Western, as your response to mention of Ted got to show. Edited September 19, 2014 by eFestivals

[Lad]

yeah, it's only the establishment that are paedos. Or is it gangs of Asians as well as the establishment? No white working class person would do those sorts of things. :

You'll have to point out were I said that. It's like youre hooked up to an enigma machine. I was obviously talking about attitudes to the subject. Why wouldn't I know that chid abuse can be found in all sections of society?You've gone back into the fog of weasel words.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Lad

[eFestivals]

You'll have to point out were I said that. It's like youre hooked up to an enigma machine. I was obviously talking about attitudes to the subject. Why wouldn't I know that chid abuse can be found in all sections of society?You've gone back into the fog of weasel words.

Child abuse is found in all sections of society. Funnily enough, disgust at child abuse is also found in all sections of society. Both of these things have always been true.

What i pointed out was the levels of disgust are much higher today than they were 40 years ago.

And you'd said....

The lower orders,as they like to think of us,have always despised chid abuse.

... despite those "lower orders" always indulging in it to the same extent as other classes.

Attitudes to crimes change no matter how much you wish to deny it, and the whole world doesn't change when you do. To expect it to is cultural imperialism.

[eFestivals]

Ted Nugent... ? this is too weird

I'm out of here

run away from your own words, and pretend you never said them.

[Lad]

Child abuse is found in all sections of society. Funnily enough, disgust at child abuse is also found in all sections of society. Both of these things have always been true.

What i pointed out was the levels of disgust are much higher today than they were 40 years ago.

And you'd said....

... despite those "lower orders" always indulging in it to the same extent as other classes.

Attitudes to crimes change no matter how much you wish to deny it, and the whole world doesn't change when you do. To expect it to is cultural imperialism.

If the enquiries on the subject in the next year or so are thorough we will see how much the establishment despised child abuse. The working class have always despised it. If you're unaware about it take my word on it. People often have to get moved through fear of attack or vigilantism Don't reckon you'd be under any threat in the House of Lords.In the time frame you mentioned it's always been like that.

What were talking about here is the reaction to it not whether it happened in working class areas. It's stating the bleeding obvious that it happens everywhere.

It's a good job that Cat/Yusuf didn't have too big an influence cos efestivals would have been a bit of a uphill struggle with no music. When people say they don't go to the festival for the lineup I'm sure they didn't mean it to go that far.

[eFestivals]

If the enquiries on the subject in the next year or so are thorough we will see how much the establishment despised child abuse.

As I've said: in the 70s, there was not the same level of public concern and anger about it, at all levels of society. That is why paedophiles were able to freely and often openly operate from and within any level of society back then.

Interested parties of any kind might be tempted to cover-ups for their own benefit. There's nothing special about 'the establishment' with that, apart from them better having the power and means with which to effectively do so.

My own suspicion is that there's currently an all-party agreement to not pursue the enquiry too quickly until after the next general election, not so much as to protect the paedos but to try and lessen the consequences back onto the parties - so that any MPs implicated or involved are able to quietly slip away at the end of their stint without anyone noticing. As Willie Hague appears to been fingered as the keeper of tory secrets, that seems to fit.

The working class have always despised it. If you're unaware about it take my word on it. People often have to get moved through fear of attack or vigilantism Don't reckon you'd be under any threat in the House of Lords.In the time frame you mentioned it's always been like that.

They might have "always despised it", but not with anything like the same venom with which its despised today. I've seen the public hate ramp-up very strongly during my lifetime.

It's a good job that Cat/Yusuf didn't have too big an influence cos efestivals would have been a bit of a uphill struggle with no music. When people say they don't go to the festival for the lineup I'm sure they didn't mean it to go that far.

Some very nice racism you've got there.

Hasn't it occurred to you that this thread exists because Cat/Yusuf is still today playing music both old and new?

[Lad]

As I've said: in the 70s, there was not the same level of public concern and anger about it, at all levels of society. That is why paedophiles were able to freely and often openly operate from and within any level of society back then.Interested parties of any kind might be tempted to cover-ups for their own benefit. There's nothing special about 'the establishment' with that, apart from them better having the power and means with which to effectively do so.My own suspicion is that there's currently an all-party agreement to not pursue the enquiry too quickly until after the next general election, not so much as to protect the paedos but to try and lessen the consequences back onto the parties - so that any MPs implicated or involved are able to quietly slip away at the end of their stint without anyone noticing. As Willie Hague appears to been fingered as the keeper of tory secrets, that seems to fit.They might have "always despised it", but not with anything like the same venom with which its despised today. I've seen the public hate ramp-up very strongly during my lifetime.Some very nice racism you've got there. :rolleyes:Hasn't it occurred to you that this thread exists because Cat/Yusuf is still today playing music both old and new?

Racism eh?It was more a comment on him giving up music for a time to follow his religious path. I think you knew that though and decided to make a ludicrous point. I think that although you love arguing ironically you get a cob on if anyone disagrees.

Your remind me of Humpty Dumpty.

"When I use a word,"Dumpty said in a rather scornful tone,"it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less".

As it's your hobby to miss the point I'm not saying you're a fat arse.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Lad

[eFestivals]

Racism eh?It was more a comment on him giving up music for a time to follow his religious path. I think you knew that though and decided to make a ludicrous point.

you said no music at all, not no music from Cat/Yusuf.

I took that as you meaning "there's no music if the Muslims have their way". How else was I meant to take it?

Your explanation just above is clearly bollocks. And efestivals has managed just fine without any music from Yusuf.

But hey, when caught out talk more bollocks or run away. That's normally how it goes.

Edited September 19, 2014 by eFestivals

[gizmoman]

Neil's definition of racism is clearly different to any normal persons. Muslims are not a race they are followers of a religion (and in many countries political system). You could argue that if someone believed Yusuf was an arab for example, they were taking a racist stance but I suspect everyone on this board knows he is a British convert to Islam, any criticism is therefore not racist.

Neil might have a point re: the criticism of Yusuf's religious beliefs if he were a regular musician who just happened to be muslim but he's far more than that, he has spent the bulk of his life promoting Islam, giving up his music career to found muslim schools and acting as an ambassador for Islam. Even if his comments on Rushdie were misrepresented the fact is he has made it his life's work to promote a theology that is (virtually everywhere it is practicsed) repressive and in some ways barbaric. There is no real difference between the teachings of Islam and christianity, Everything there is to dislike about Islam (repression of women, gays, public capital punishment etc.) have all been practised in western countries until the relatively recent past. The difference is that in the west people have realised these things are wrong and are changing to create a more equitable society. In many muslim states there is a move backwards to a more fundamentalist way of thinking. (I'm sure some of this is due to the west's aggression). There is therefore a legitimate reason to criticise anyone who promotes this ideology. This doesn't mean he shouldn't play Glasto but people have a right to consider not watching him because of his beliefs just as some didn't watch Hetfield and co. once they heard about his hunting. As for Ted Nugent, is he on the rumours list?

[eFestivals]

the fact is he has made it his life's work to promote a theology that is (virtually everywhere it is practicsed) repressive and in some ways barbaric.

I've yet to see a beheading on my street, but if I do see one I'll be sure to let you know.

There is no real difference between the teachings of Islam and christianity, Everything there is to dislike about Islam (repression of women, gays, public capital punishment etc.)

if you stop and ponder for a moment on your own words just there, a whole new world will open up to you where you'll be far wiser.

have all been practised in western countries until the relatively recent past. The difference is that in the west people have realised these things are wrong and are changing to create a more equitable society.

aren't those Muslims horrible for not jumping at the exact same moment as us?

In many muslim states there is a move backwards to a more fundamentalist way of thinking.

I'm sure you'll be able to name many then. Please do go ahead.

There is therefore a legitimate reason to criticise anyone who promotes this ideology.

I'm 100% in agreement with you.

Any ideology which advocates judicial murder is an uncivilised ideology, all of them equally so.

It's an ideology entirely disconnected from religions in every implementation.

As for Ted Nugent, is he on the rumours list?

Nope, he's on the definitely playing list - playing to the uncivilised who like to see other humans die via judicial process. Just like Yusuf.

Meanwhile, our own govt and the USA doesn't even bother with the judicial process. They like to see other humans die just in case they might be nasty.

Edited September 19, 2014 by eFestivals

[gizmoman]

"It's an ideology entirely disconnected from religions in every implementation."

A quick look at Amnesty's league table of Capital Punishment states would suggest otherwise.

[eFestivals]

"It's an ideology entirely disconnected from religions in every implementation."

A quick look at Amnesty's league table of Capital Punishment states would suggest otherwise.

I'm guessing that China and the USA are top of that list. Am I correct?

(googling after writing that line I see I'm wrong about the USA being 2nd. They're 5th)

But whatever, what you actually have are political implementations of a loose religious idea - an idea within our own dominant religion don't forget, and which was only abolished in the UK ten years ago. And just over a year ago there was a bill in the UK Parliament for its re-introduction.

Meanwhile, the UK and USA both continue to carry out what are known as extrajudicial killings - which is not extra justice, it's no justice at all.

[eFestivals]

ok, you didn't 'ask' me about Ted Nugent, you mentioned him, and I made a comment. Big deal. You then pursued the Ted Nugent theme for some reason, interpreting the few words I said to mean that I thought he's not as bad as Yusuf Islam. What difference does it make?

the difference it makes is the difference you take.

[gizmoman]

Didn't find any beheadings in Bristol but you might class this as barbaric.

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/investigations-FGM-practice/story-22216907-detail/story.html

and if you think that it's not related to Islam.

http://islamqa.info/en/45528

[eFestivals]

Didn't find any beheadings in Bristol but you might class this as barbaric.

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/investigations-FGM-practice/story-22216907-detail/story.html

and if you think that it's not related to Islam.

http://islamqa.info/en/45528

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision

spot the difference - apart from in the reactions?

There's a lot of bad things about Islam, to my mind. There's also lots of bad things about every other religion. All i'm asking is that a full and proper perspective is used, so that comments aren't discriminatory or misleading.

We are not the moral leaders of the world no matter how much we might like to believe we are.

Edited September 19, 2014 by eFestivals

[stuartbert two hats]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision

spot the difference - apart from in the reactions?

There's a lot of bad things about Islam, to my mind. There's also lots of bad things about every other religion. All i'm asking is that a full and proper perspective is used, so that comments aren't discriminatory or misleading.

We are not the moral leaders of the world no matter how much we might like to believe we are.

Are you suggesting that male circumcision and female circumcision (AKA Female genital mutilation) are roughly equivalent?

[A Guy Called Matt]

.

Edited September 19, 2014 by mattyc1965

[Lad]

you said no music at all, not no music from Cat/Yusuf.

I took that as you meaning "there's no music if the Muslims have their way". How else was I meant to take it?

Your explanation just above is clearly bollocks. And efestivals has managed just fine without any music from Yusuf.

But hey, when caught out talk more bollocks or run away. That's normally how it goes.

I think that making up blag quotes is bollocks Humpty. It's not my fault that you can only see what you want and not what's in front of you.

You're more a bale of hay than a strawman

[5co77ie]

wonder if the gig will go ahead?

Cat Stevens has cancelled a December gig in New York because of the exorbitant resale prices being charged by touts.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/sep/25/cat-stevens-cancels-new-york-date-over-ticket-tout-concerns

“My fans will understand and I thank them for informing me about the extortionate ticket prices already being listed on some websites. I have been a longtime supporter of paperless tickets to my shows worldwide and avoiding scalpers,” he writes.

“Unfortunately New York has a state law that requires all tickets sold for shows in New York City to be paper, enabling them to be bought and sold at inflated prices. I’m sorry about not being able to now play in New York City but hope to find an opportunity that aligns with my support of this issue in the near future, God willing.”

Edited September 26, 2014 by 5co77ie

[zero000]

wonder if the gig will go ahead?

Cat Stevens has cancelled a December gig in New York because of the exorbitant resale prices being charged by touts.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/sep/25/cat-stevens-cancels-new-york-date-over-ticket-tout-concerns

Fair play he's got more principles than Chris Martin.

[CaledonianGonzo]

Though the people who purchased tickets legitimately also miss out....

Perhaps some sort of Kate Bush style ID requirement would have sorted it.