the elephant in the room... climate change

[eFestivals]

Well it could.... If thats the only thing worth paying for and you view the whole thing in isolation....

With a growing ageing population the welfare bill (which of course includes pensions) is only going up, the required funding for the NHS, growing, declining world position etc etc The strain on the national budget is going to increase...

All of these things have to paid for anyway - or we stand by and happily watch people die.

Are you voting for standing by and watching people die that you could be helping?

So we might as well pay for these things via a social system, which is fair to the idea that we are all born as equals and all have the same rights to life.

Its been really interesting to hear you stand up for the entitlement of the rich to have a pension Champaign Socialist ?

I'm standing up for the right to a pension.

The alternative is to be standing up for the right to stand by and watch people die.

If we were to abolish the current state pension arrangements, how much money to you think might be saved? Unless we were to happily stand by and watch people die by poverty, the cost to the state changes very little. We'd simply swap most of the pension costs for other welfare costs, because people with no other means of support need state support or they will die.

[Guest]

Why are we talking about pensions in a climate change thread?

Edited February 1, 2014 by tonyblair

[grumpyhack]

PS, just to say, the elephant (in the room) isn't climate change itself, it's the possible/likely consequences of it.

[Guest]

And shouldn't it also be actions we can take?

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

Australia have decided it's ok to dump waste on the doorstep of the Great Reef Barrier in order to access more fossil fuels,

[grumpyhack]

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for a few good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke (1729-1797).

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for a few good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke (1729-1797).

[grumpyhack]

You can't stop them doing that. So all you can concentrate on are your positive contributions.

We're about to have solar panels fitted to our roof (PV and thermal) and a wood burning stove/boiler. We've switched over to LED lighting as much as possible.

It won't stop global warming but every little helps.

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

You can't stop them doing that. So all you can concentrate on are your positive contributions.

We're about to have solar panels fitted to our roof (PV and thermal) and a wood burning stove/boiler. We've switched over to LED lighting as much as possible.

It won't stop global warming but every little helps.

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

That took him a long time to say those few words

[eFestivals]

Your rights go no further than a vote in Parliament (and the Lords)...

Wrong.

I have the right to team up with others to use violence to bring the govt smashing to the ground, if necessary.

Parliament is there to represent the will of the people. If Parliament fails to act on that will then the people have the right to correct that wrong.

Some of us are smarter than a mindless respect for law but with no respect for fellow humans.

[eFestivals]

I think you are totally missing my point I am saying there probably / possibly / maybe shouldn't be a feeling of entitlement to a state pension if you are rich... The sort that won't die without it...

Do you have trouble reading ? Was your school shit or something ? Or are you just lazy ?

No, I have no trouble reading just as I have no trouble thinking. The only shit around here is from your own mouth.

People have the right to the pension they paid for. If you undermine that idea then logically there will cease to be those pensions.

If some are so rich that they don't need the pension they've paid for while the govt struggles to pay for all pensions then the answer in regard to pensions is to make that person less rich via taxes to fund pensions for all, and not to abandon the idea of pensions.

Only the very very VERY stupid think that pensions can be abandoned anyway. People have to be supported, and so if you do away with pensions you replace it with another form of welfare and no meaningful saving is made.

The is the cost of things and then there is the value of things. The two are not necessarily the same.

[eFestivals]

It won't stop global warming but every little helps.

unfortunately the system that exists won't stop global warming, as you say.

But it's more than a little that those rich enough can make out of this, and that lot certainly helps the rich stay rich while the poor carry the costs.

You might have had panels done for the best of reasons from some angles, but i'm sure the financial advantages were a significant part of your consideration too. And while it makes perfect sense for you as an individual to go the route that you have because you obviously have the financial means to take advantage of the situation that exists, none of that can separate it from the fact that the poorest are subsidising the profits you'll make.

The situation around the UK's energy supplies is about as stupid as it's possible to get. Rip-off to the advantage of the rich exist though-out the system, while for the same costs we could work a system that benefits more than just the rich.

[eFestivals]

Oh so your back to your communist utopia *rolls eyes* Sorry I was talking in the boundary of reality and no the dreams and voices in your head

and so we're back to your greedy, where enriching yourself is further enriched by happily watching others die.

The boundaries of reality are where reality settles. I know it wouldn't be much today's norm, but why do you think the selfish w*nkers have won and won for all eternity?

The w*nkers haven't yet won the argument today, and the tide is turning. At bleeding last.

[kaosmark2]

[feral chile]

I've been utterly shocked recently by comments I've heard from some extremely well educated, intelligent, successful and wealthy people, who deplore the culture of entitlement, meaning of course of benefits, and not their own wealth, and suggesting that the poor (and everyone else) should be left to look after their own.

I had to pinch myself to check I hadn't travelled back in time.

[grumpyhack]

You might have had panels done for the best of reasons from some angles, but i'm sure the financial advantages were a significant part of your consideration too. And while it makes perfect sense for you as an individual to go the route that you have because you obviously have the financial means to take advantage of the situation that exists, none of that can separate it from the fact that the poorest are subsidising the profits you'll make.

Edited February 2, 2014 by grumpyhack

[Spindles]

I've been utterly shocked recently by comments I've heard from some extremely well educated, intelligent, successful and wealthy people, who deplore the culture of entitlement, meaning of course of benefits, and not their own wealth, and suggesting that the poor (and everyone else) should be left to look after their own.

I had to pinch myself to check I hadn't travelled back in time.

[eFestivals]

LMAO where is the evidence anything is changing ?

The easiest thing to point at to show a massive change in the public's thinking is that nationalisation of important national assets is now again seen by the majority as the better idea to the alternatives.

The fat lady ain't singing. In fact the fat lady has currently lost her voice.

I wouldn't bet against the fat lady getting her voice back - because that's how stupid so very many people are (as you so kindly demonstrate for us each and every day) - but neither would I bet against the fat lady dropping down dead with a heart attack.

[eFestivals]

We're very unlikely to even break even let alone make a profit as the payback time is at least ten years and almost certainly we won't still be in this house by then.

Just to be clear, I'm not having a go at you for your choice. As I said, it makes perfect sense on any individual basis.

But to claim you'll lose on it? Laughable, absolutely laughable.

But we hope to do a little to help while we can afford it.

PMSL. Even better.

You'll do 'your little' while you coin it at the expense of the poorest is what you really mean, because that is the indisputable true fact of the situation you've chosen to take financial advantage of.

[5co77ie]

...and here it comes:

http://news.sky.com/story/1205472/flood-chief-tricky-decisions-must-be-made

"Flood defences cost money; and how much should the taxpayer be prepared to spend on different places, communities and livelihoods - in Somerset, Lincolnshire, Yorkshire, or East Anglia?

"There's no bottomless purse, and we need to make difficult but sensible choices about where and what we try to protect."

Lord Smith said more than one million homes have been defended across country, over the past couple of months - in the face of "everything that nature could throw at us".

"I'm proud of what the Environment Agency and its staff have done," he added.

[Buff124]

These are not my words, but....

Humans can have a tough time dealing with change. And climate change is no different. As time marches on, we'll have get used to the fact that the "unthinkable" will continue to happen.

From memory it might be a Derrick Jensen quote; and if the question is 'who he' then the answer is :

[Guest]

These are not my words, but....

Humans can have a tough time dealing with change. And climate change is no different. As time marches on, we'll have get used to the fact that the "unthinkable" will continue to happen.

[kerplunk]

No, absolutely not. As I said I did geography I'm well aware of climate change and it's massive impact within the tropics, however we are outside the main area of impact and whilst our weather is getting more random it's not expected to get particularly different until the middle of the equator is pretty much toast, at which point the rainforest will be gone and this planet will be pretty tough to live on.

But on the other hand global-warming increases with latitude and the especially rapid warming/declining sea-ice in the arctic over the last decade or so seems to coincide with the wacky-jetstream driven weather we're seeing all over the NH mid-latitudes in recent years. Whether it's a pattern that'll continue and get worse as a result of global warming though is hard to answer - in climate terms it hasn't been happening for very long and there may well be a cyclic element to it as well. El Sol appears to be going through some change too, which may also be affecting our weather, so interesting times for climate-watchers (but not much certainty).

[grumpyhack]

Just to be clear, I'm not having a go at you for your choice. As I said, it makes perfect sense on any individual basis.

But to claim you'll lose on it? Laughable, absolutely laughable.

PMSL. Even better.

You'll do 'your little' while you coin it at the expense of the poorest is what you really mean, because that is the indisputable true fact of the situation you've chosen to take financial advantage of.