The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

An example ?

UK Govt Minister George Osborne: There will not be a currency union

UK Govt Minister Philip Hammond: of course there will be a currency union.

Alex Salmond: there will be a CU.

Which is the liar? Or all three just giving their political opinion?

No lies there (yet), because lies are measured against the facts and there are no facts here to be measured against.

[Buff124]

Alex Salmond: there will be a CU.

Which is the liar? Or all three just giving their political opinion?

No lies there (yet), because lies are measured against the facts and there are no facts here to be measured against.

So why do you keep banging on about it like some trained cockatoo ?

[eFestivals]

This article, which you quoted from http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/18/truth-money-iou-bank-of-england-austerity

I linked to it in an entirely different context.

Yep, it's an IOU. It's also a guarantee by a sovereign state.

Care to tell me how iScotland - or more correctly, the people of Scotland - can guarantee rUK's banking sector?

iScotland wouldn't even be able to guarantee the banks that currently reside within Scotland.

Why won't I address the currency question ? See Mr Hammond's comment above.

utterly irrelevant to what you think a currency is.

What is an interesting 'what if' - sorry LJS - is if there's a Yes vote, a currency union is agreed, then rUK votes to leave the EU. iScotland could not remain in a currency union with a non-EU country. Timescale for that would be 2018 or thereabouts ?

It's just one of many scenarios where iScotland might badly abuse the favour that it will beg for.

The possibility of abuse at any level is a political consideration, way outside anything the white paper is able to address.

[eFestivals]

So why do you keep banging on about it like some trained cockatoo ?

i've not (lately, at least) called Salmond a liar for wanting it.

Salmond is nailed a liar with the oil estimates.

Try again?

[Buff124]

I'm beginning to realise your knowledge of the subject, such as it is, comes from readfing anonymous comments on newspaper websites

and this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014

<wee sticky oot tongue smiley> <wee laffing its heid aff smiley>

[eFestivals]

Neil, you and I have discussed currency to death already.

but you won't answer the question I've been asking for months: what is a currency?

So no, you won't discuss.

[eFestivals]

I'm beginning to realise your knowledge of the subject, such as it is, comes from readfing anonymous comments on newspaper websites

yes of course, I' decided to talk about your expert subject on the basis of what morons say.

[eFestivals]

I think a currency Union should at least be considered and the orchestrated rejection of it by all three main parties strikes me as a campaigning strategy. I have given some reasons and examples why I think it should be considered.

Neil of course does not agree with my reasons.

It's not a campaigning strategy. It's what those three parties have all been saying since long before there was any campaign.

And from before devolution. And from before all chance of devolution.

In fact since the days of Thatcher being in office.

But you think 30 years of consideration is a recent campaign strategy. OK.

Those are 100% certain facts. But in the Scottish referendum, all facts are to be rejected for the glory of iScotland.

[eFestivals]

BTW, I don't agree with a lot of what those parties say around the UK and the Euro, but I do in regard to iScotland.

And that's because they're very different beasts, with very different futures,

with CU's for very different purposes.

[Buff124]

yes of course, I' decided to talk about your expert subject on the basis of what morons say.

Well you seem quite happy to argue with one

[Buff124]

Its just struck me that arguing with a variety of morons probably takes up a fair part of your normal day. I feel privileged to have made the list, and would just like to say a sincere Thank You.

[eFestivals]

Its just struck me that arguing with a variety of morons probably takes up a fair part of your normal day. I feel privileged to have made the list, and would just like to say a sincere Thank You.

I see the standard of your comprehension of my words is about the same as so many Scots towards Salmonds.

If you care to read back, I neither said you were a mornon, indicated that you were a moron, nor were thinking thqat you were.

You implied that my knowledge comes only from the morons that post in newspapers. I was addressing that.

What comes from those morons is how each campaign is playing out in reality, not (necessarily) what each campaign is.

Edited April 26, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

but you won't answer the question I've been asking for months: what is a currency?

and still the central question gets avoided.

How can you reasonably ask for something if/when you don't understand what you're asking for?

Edited April 26, 2014 by eFestivals

[LJS]

It's not a campaigning strategy. It's what those three parties have all been saying since long before there was any campaign.

And from before devolution. And from before all chance of devolution.

In fact since the days of Thatcher being in office.

But you think 30 years of consideration is a recent campaign strategy. OK.

Those are 100% certain facts. But in the Scottish referendum, all facts are to be rejected for the glory of iScotland.

& Danny Alexander in 2013

Firstly that an independent Scottish state enters a formal sterling currency union with the continuing UK; where Scottish businesses, and households and Universities continue to use sterling, and the Bank of England acts as a common central bank to both countries.

Such an arrangement would see both Scotland and the United Kingdom continue to use the same currency.

And there would be no short term costs in terms of printing new coinage, or setting up new financial institutions...

But such a union would be likely to present problems in both the long and the short term.

It is extremely challenging to combine monetary union with full fiscal independence.

And the lessons learned from the Eurozone have been clear for all to see.

That while such arrangements can appear successful in a period of stability, they can lead to brutal readjustments in times of economic stress and uncertainty.

There are ways around those risks.

Now I'm not saying either of these guys are saying CU is a great idea but it is not ruling it out as you claim they have always done.

Even george osbourne didn't always rule it out completey

George Osborne has stepped up the Treasury's attacks on Scottish independence by warning it is "unlikely" the UK would agree to a sterling currency union that could threaten the economy.

just sayin...

[LJS]

and still the central question gets avoided.

How can you reasonably ask for something if/when you don't understand what you're asking for?

NOUN (plural currencies)

• 1A system of money in general use in a particular country:

[Buff124]

About the moron thing.

I was being self deprecatory

I do genuinely appreciate the amount of time you devote to this thread, otherwise it would just be me, LJS and Comfy endlessly agreeing with each other

[eFestivals]

Two Scotmen see what works best for Scotland.

It's hardly a fair evaluation of the rUK view, is it?

[eFestivals]

NOUN (plural currencies)

• 1A system of money in general use in a particular country:

it's more than just that tho.

Something gives it a value beyond it just being a prettily printed bit of cotton. Care to take a stab at what?

[LJS]

Two Scotmen see what works best for Scotland.

It's hardly a fair evaluation of the rUK view, is it?

I really have no idea what you are on about.

please help me?

[LJS]

it's more than just that tho.

Something gives it a value beyond it just being a prettily printed bit of cotton. Care to take a stab at what?

ooh a new question, goody!

well it used to be gold but it ain't any more. It's blind faith now

[kaosmark2]

It's blind faith now

Pretty much. Currency has value because people trust that they can trade it for goods and services, and will continue to be able to. The currencies that fluctuate heavily in value (mostly African ones) are ones where that faith fluctuates and there's less certainty.

Money has value because people are always willing to trade for it, and it's more convenient than carrying around bacon and beer to trade.

[LJS]

Pretty much. Currency has value because people trust that they can trade it for goods and services, and will continue to be able to. The currencies that fluctuate heavily in value (mostly African ones) are ones where that faith fluctuates and there's less certainty.

Money has value because people are always willing to trade for it, and it's more convenient than carrying around bacon and beer to trade.

That's it. Forget the pound. We want bacon & beer....oh & jam too of course.

[LJS]

Can we deep fry the bacon?

[LJS]

I've even got the slogan...

They said using the pound was rash so we're using the rasher

[Buff124]

The Chomsky quote's been picked up by the Grauniad.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/25/scottish-referendum-noam-chomsky-yes-bowie-no-independence

"Chomsky is well known for being a passionate critic of nationalism in its many guises. "Nationalism has a way of oppressing others," he once cautioned an audience in Govan back in 1990. So what has changed? Probably nothing, and that's why it's interesting. Chomsky is giving an entirely consistent nod to the anti-nationalist case for Scottish independence, a view that is widely held on the ground but has had almost no expression in the media or among the campaign leaders. Remember that the question before voters is not about nationalism but about independence"