The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

2: You have again expressed your concerns about the DRAFT INTERIM constitution. Unlike you I try & avoid constantly banging on about Independence in unrelated threads so I'll answer your post in the other place here, where it belongs.

I wasn't trying to take this discussion elsewhere, I was pointing out how hollow current claims of activism are by using the place most-making that claim of themselves right now.

That post was fully relevant where it was posted.

Now, you seem to be pretty much alone in these concerns - & knowing the alacrity & enthusiasm with which the No Thankers jump on any Yes policy they see as in any way suspect - It is amazing they haven't picked up on this. Now when you are a lone voice in the wilderness you are either a remarkable visionary or...

You have some strengths Neil but I wouldn't call you a visionary. Hope I haven't offended you!

I might be the only one with concern for it, but nothing of that proves my concern misplaced. Only by comparing what I say against the facts can you do that - and you've refused to do that in this thread so far.

The constitution starts "the people of Scotland are sovereign". They're lovely grand words, but what do they actually mean?

Are the people of iScotland more sovereign under that constitution than the people of the UK are under the (no-constitution) rules of Westminster?

From Alex's further words in that constitution: Nope.

The people of iScotland are less sovereign than the people of the UK.

And you've not noticed.

And neither has anyone else.

That should worry you. A LOT!!!!!!!

Edited July 18, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

There is no decision in my life I have put more energy & effort into,

and yet there's so very many things of massive importance you won't EVER discuss.

I have asked constantly: What is a currency?

This is of massive importance, because yes claims a right to the UK currency.

I have pointed out that the people of Scotland are not sovereign as Alex has claimed. You won't discuss it, despite the irrefutable words of Alex in that document.

Etc, etc, etc.

There's some massive areas where you are putting in no effort at all.

That saddens me, not because I wish to convince you to share my ultimate conclusion, but because I wish you to know *exactly* what you're voting for or against.

Edited July 18, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

I'll take my "Hope" over the above "facts" any day of the week.

so what you're saying is that if Russy makes a true statement (as your words here get to show he did), you get angry about it.

Put your hope away, and take out and use your intelligence instead. You'll end up much happier with your choices if you do so.

Edited July 18, 2014 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

The attached is a bit long for a Friday night and it is very one sided - so should be quite at home here

Don`t imagine anyone will agree with every word but it touches on a lot of the issues we`ve had a go at. I " think " we all agreed that Cameron and co are for sure not concerned about the welfare of the people of Scotland, or elsewhere for that matter, and it gives a view on whats really in it for Cameron. On here the YES folks have been accused of pretty much everything from racists to idiots from dreamers to greed merchants wanting to steal from the mouths of English children

This highlights some of the potential consequences of a vote to leave the decisions that affect Scotland in the hands of a Westminster Govt.

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/07/17/dinner-with-no-voters-or-what-i-wanted-to-say-before-the-pudding-hit-the-fan/

[LJS]

what you don't want to accept is that both can be true.It's certainly the case that the yes campaign is based solidly within the solid tory idea of "everything I create should be mine". Or just "me me me and fuck everyone else".It's also quite possible for it to be true that regardless of what Scotland's financial situation is today, that Scotland's financial situation post-indy can be significantly worse.And, unfortunately for yes, there's plenty of things that can be pointed at for exactly why iScotland's situation might be worse than now. The easy one is the Scottish banks, which if they head south put a permanent black-hole of £5Bn (average) lost tax revenue onto iScotland's position from what it is now. There's other things too.Why not actually try to understand the words that get said to you, instead of pretending they're completely empty as you've done here? You'll be smarter for it even if they don't influence your choice.

Why not try and make your point without adding the personal insult at the end?

Could you supply the evidence for your £5bn figure? As I understand it most tax is paid on profits & lbg & rbs have not been making a lot of these lately.

Of course if both can be true then equally both can be false.

(inserts gratuitous insult & then random smiley to make it appear all in good fun)

Edited July 18, 2014 by LJS

[LJS]

You've complained about me throwing off the word of experts as just another opinion. And yet their word *IS* just another opinion, not necessarily any better formed than yours or mine.The very fact that proves this true is that the experts cannot agree. So there's nothing with which to identify them as experts with, and so they're not experts.The real point of this from iScotland's point of view is that things will not happen in the perfect way that Salmond claims AND THAT WILL IMPACT ONTO MUCH MORE (and make those other things also far less than the perfect of Alex's claims).Yes-ers don't follow thru. They might admit like you do that it won't be Alex's perfect dream, but then they stop their thinking as tho there's no further consequences onto iScotland.This is like the Scottish banks thing where yes-ers might say "London can have all the banking problems and that's one less problem for iScotland" without linking that up to iScotland losing the £5Bn per-year average tax revenue from them. That's 7% of the Scottish Govt's budget they've just tossed away as tho it means nothing (a greater amount than the oil will ever give iScotland).

If you would care to rewrite this in any sort of coherent manner I will be glad to respond.

[LJS]

I wasn't trying to take this discussion elsewhere, I was pointing out how hollow current claims of activism are by using the place most-making that claim of themselves right now.That post was fully relevant where it was posted. I might be the only one with concern for it, but nothing of that proves my concern misplaced. Only by comparing what I say against the facts can you do that - and you've refused to do that in this thread so far. :rolleyes:The constitution starts "the people of Scotland are sovereign". They're lovely grand words, but what do they actually mean?Are the people of iScotland more sovereign under that constitution than the people of the UK are under the (no-constitution) rules of Westminster?From Alex's further words in that constitution: Nope.The people of iScotland are less sovereign than the people of the UK.And you've not noticed.And neither has anyone else.That should worry you. A LOT!!!!!!!

When the rest of the world catches up with you visionary view, i'll give it some more thought.

Ever thought of starting your own religion?

[LJS]

and yet there's so very many things of massive importance you won't EVER discuss.I have asked constantly: What is a currency?This is of massive importance, because yes claims a right to the UK currency.I have pointed out that the people of Scotland are not sovereign as Alex has claimed. You won't discuss it, despite the irrefutable words of Alex in that document.Etc, etc, etc.There's some massive areas where you are putting in no effort at all.That saddens me, not because I wish to convince you to share my ultimate conclusion, but because I wish you to know *exactly* what you're voting for or against.

I answered your question about currency about 2 months ago. You clearly missed it.

But if it makes you happy here goes... Currency is stuff usually made of metal or paper which has little intrinsic value but because we all believe it has value it works exactly like it actually has that value.

Now, I will await the response you have been dying to give.

[LJS]

so what you're saying is that if Russy makes a true statement (as your words here get to show he did), you get angry about it. :PPut your hope away, and take out and use your intelligence instead. You'll end up much happier with your choices if you do so.

Russy made a true statement?

Care to back that up?

And you cannot & will not deny me the right to hope.

Do you disagree with anything in my description of the UK? Can you tell me how that is going to change within the UK?

Cos if there is no realistic chance of change in the UK, i'm out!

Oh & please read your last 2 sentences. Do you think you've maybe been a tiny bit patronising there?

Edited July 18, 2014 by LJS

[Comfy Bean]

I`m pretty certain that whatever happens a currency will be within our capabilities. I`m positive certain pretty sure hopeful that even Neil doesn`t think we will be reduced to bargaining with sheep *

Things will be difficult should YES pull this off but the country will not ground to a halt.

* I am aware of the allegations that my friends in the North still get involved with this. Well I think it`s bargaining they stand accused of !

[LJS]

The attached is a bit long for a Friday night and it is very one sided - so should be quite at home here

Don`t imagine anyone will agree with every word but it touches on a lot of the issues we`ve had a go at. I " think " we all agreed that Cameron and co are for sure not concerned about the welfare of the people of Scotland, or elsewhere for that matter, and it gives a view on whats really in it for Cameron. On here the YES folks have been accused of pretty much everything from racists to idiots from dreamers to greed merchants wanting to steal from the mouths of English children

This highlights some of the potential consequences of a vote to leave the decisions that affect Scotland in the hands of a Westminster Govt.

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/07/17/dinner-with-no-voters-or-what-i-wanted-to-say-before-the-pudding-hit-the-fan/

yes, I read this & it does make some interesting points about the consequences of a No vote which I haven't seen made before.

there has been much more discussion about what will happen after a yes than after a No.

since no remains (sadly) the most likely result, we should maybe think about that more.

Edited July 18, 2014 by LJS

[LJS]

Here's a nutter who thinks Scotland puts more into the UK than it takes out.

"[width]

The notion that Scottish public services are subsidised by English taxpayers has become so commonplace in UK politics that not even David Dimbleby, the supposedly neutral presenter of BBC Question Time, thinks twice about repeating it. During an exchange on a recent show with Liberal Democrat Jo Swinson about her decision to vote as a Scottish MP to impose tuition fees on English students, Dimbleby said, "You voted for England to have fees, whereas Scotland, as we know, with the amount of money that comes from England, doesn't need to have them."

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/11/scotland-12288-union-public

Edited July 18, 2014 by LJS

[kaosmark2]

Ever thought of starting your own religion?

I wonder what it would be called.

[eFestivals]

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/07/17/dinner-with-no-voters-or-what-i-wanted-to-say-before-the-pudding-hit-the-fan/

I've seen this going around tho not read it myself. It seems to be a big hit with yes-ers, but I've also seen a lot of no-ers laughing about it, saying that to them it reads like it's written to ridicule yes-ers.

------

The other thing yes-ers seem to have taken up in the last few days is "the privatisation of the NHS in England", and how that will see Scotland lose all of its funding for its own NHS within the block grant.

How such an impossible myth is gaining so much oxygen I've no idea, but the lack of understanding of the most simple economics it displays does explain a lot about some of the yes support.

[eFestivals]

Why not try and make your point without adding the personal insult at the end?

Could you supply the evidence for your £5bn figure? As I understand it most tax is paid on profits & lbg & rbs have not been making a lot of these lately.

Of course if both can be true then equally both can be false.

(inserts gratuitous insult & then random smiley to make it appear all in good fun)

It's not a personal insult, it's a statement of fact. Things like these which suggest a bad outcome for Scotland which you've no counter argument for normally avoid, you simply brush them off as wrong on the basis that yes has told you they're wrong.

If you care to note I said "average" not "this year".

You're able to look up for yourself the tax take from banks in the good years, and to put it in perspective you also need to be looking up Scotland's deficit (or not, occasionally, a long time ago) year-on-year, and how that deficit compares to the UK average year-on-year.

Nothing within Alex's economic calculations for the future allows for any of the current Scottish revenues being lost, and yet there's just about no one other than Alex who believes that Scotland won't lose a chunk of its banking sector.

[eFestivals]

If you would care to rewrite this in any sort of coherent manner I will be glad to respond.

iScotland's financial position via it's tax take will be significantly worse than Alex's stated scenario.

That means that Alex's stated benefits can't be fulfilled.

That means the chances of the "better" Scotland you hope for thru increased social justice is reduced.

But nothing of this matters. I know.

[eFestivals]

When the rest of the world catches up with you visionary view, i'll give it some more thought.

In other words, in the great politically active Scotland you proclaim yourself as part of, you're not politically active enough to re-read the constitution to see if I might be right.

Instead, in the great politically active Scotland you proclaim yourself as part of, you'll wait for someone else who claims to be politically active like you (so not ) to tell you that you should be politically active.

Can it get more ridiculous?

Ever thought of starting your own religion?

Nope, I'm not Alex. I don't want a load of mindless sheep to follow me, who believe every word I say but who won't bother to investigate for themselves.

I want people to use their own brains to see what they can see, sand then make up their own minds for themselves. Ever thought of trying that?

I've told you that you've missed something of very significant importance in your reading of the constitution.

You're a smart guy. You can prove me wrong of you re-read it and pull out the bits to prove me wrong. It's not a particularly long document, and it's not jhard to understand.,

Care to show me that you're not simply a disciple of Alex, by using your intelligence?

Go on, prove me wrong. Show me how the people of iScotland will have greater sovereignty within iScotland than the people of the UK have in the UK.

Show me how all power in iScotland isn't within the sole control of politicians, with nothing for the people.

In the constitutions of dictators, greater regard for the people's sovereignty over politicians is given than Alex is giving you. You'd know this if you knew what is typically contained in constitutions but is not within Alex's.

Even the fact of just Alex having written it (after saying he never would do) breaks modern democratic standards - but you're informed and politically active, so you know that already, yeah?

[eFestivals]

I answered your question about currency about 2 months ago. You clearly missed it.

But if it makes you happy here goes... Currency is stuff usually made of metal or paper which has little intrinsic value but because we all believe it has value it works exactly like it actually has that value.

Now, I will await the response you have been dying to give.

You're almost right. It's a medium of exchange.

How does currency get its actual value tho, so that it's not merely a bit of printed paper?

[LJS]

You're almost right. It's a medium of exchange.How does currency get its actual value tho, so that it's not merely a bit of printed paper?

Used to be gold, now it's blind faith mainly.

[eFestivals]

[eFestivals]

yes, I read this & it does make some interesting points about the consequences of a No vote which I haven't seen made before.

Ahhhh, the yes-ers NHS bollocks has come from that. PMSL.

A slashing of consequential health spending as privatisation of the NHS in England and Wales speeds up?

There is no privatisation of the NHS happening in England. Why do you think there is?

What there is is "contracting out". The NHS has as much chance of disappearing via that as your refuse collection did by being contracted out.

(Just so it's clear I don't support that contracting out, but it is NOT "privatisation").

Given that people in the UK would happily pay extra taxes for the NHS, it's not going to be shut down anytime soon.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jul/16/poll-raise-taxes-nhs-funding

But you keep those myths coming boys, and desperately believe every bit of bollocks that yes tell you is true. It must be true.

Frreeeeeeedom! You can take my life but you can never take my NHS.

[eFestivals]

Used to be gold, now it's blind faith mainly.

not true at all.

[LJS]

Ahhhh, the yes-ers NHS bollocks has come from that. PMSL.

There is no privatisation of the NHS happening in England. Why do you think there is?

What there is is "contracting out". The NHS has as much chance of disappearing via that as your refuse collection did by being contracted out.

(Just so it's clear I don't support that contracting out, but it is NOT "privatisation").

Given that people in the UK would happily pay extra taxes for the NHS, it's not going to be shut down anytime soon.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jul/16/poll-raise-taxes-nhs-funding

But you keep those myths coming boys, and desperately believe every bit of bollocks that yes tell you is true. It must be true.

Frreeeeeeedom! You can take my life but you can never take my NHS.

Now, Neil, I can't believe you are believing opinion polls that say people are prepared to pay more taxes!!! I'm fairly sure you have ridiculed such notions in the past.

As far as the article you were referring to is concerned the points of interest I was taking from it were nothing to do with the nhs, but more around the suggestion that if we vote no then we take away the comfort blanket of saying "well the uk government may be doing all these bad things but at least we didn't vote for it" Now, I know you think this view is bollocks but, I assume you will least acknowledge that there is a certain logic to it. There are a few other potential consequences of a no victory which I shall no doubt return to nearer the time if a No vote still seems the likely outcome.

As far as the NHS, the left have of course been accusing the Tories of trying to privatise the NHS for most of our lives and there is no doubt that most of that has been exaggerated for political effect. The article you have linked to does not in any way address this in any way. However, I would suggest there are legitimate concerns about the way the NHS is being run and of course if that results in a real term reduction in UK spending that will no doubt have a knock on effect on the size Scotland's block grant.

Of course the simple and logical conclusion would be for Scotland to take control of our own finances

[LJS]

Used to be gold, now it's blind faith mainly.

not true at all.

It sort of is ... but go on Neil , you clearly have something you are dying to say... don't bottle it up any longer ... let it out... you'll feel better for it.

[LJS]

Neil, I won't say much on the hope & fact thing as I am perfectly happy to stand by what I said previously

So just a couple of quick points ... you said...

things will only change when people want them to change and the changes can be afforded.

In terms of inequality the UK can't afford to change? really? - I think it won't prioritise change is more the point.

& yes you can say - well neither will Scotland ... & I can disagree .

& yes we know you think Scotland will be an economic basket case ( an opinion - not a fact) & if you are right all my dreams will turn to dust.

Fortunately there is good reason to believe that things will be significantly better that all your worst case scenarios.