Football 2011-2012

[Wooderson]

City fans - can you go any lower? "Van Persie is ours". Really? Is that what you want? Citeh used to be my 2nd fave team. Not any more. Dreadful.

[strummer77]

City fans - can you go any lower? "Van Persie is ours". Really? Is that what you want? Citeh used to be my 2nd fave team. Not any more. Dreadful.

Edited December 19, 2011 by strummer77

[eFestivals]

Yeah the rumour was bollocks. The fact it's been delayed shows you how tough this is to judge. I reckon they'll find a way of charging Suarez for abuse but not racism. Short suspended ban. Activated by finger gesture. That or they'll make some huge fuck off ban up for Suarez despite the fact they clearly aren't 100% sure either way.

The FA really shouldn't be dealing with this, racism should be referred to the police or nothing. Put the case in the hands of the right people.

The police aren't any better placed to make that sort of judgement than the FA in a case like this (as opposed to the far more straightforwards Terry/Ferdinand case). And in fact, the police might be worse placed, because they have hard and fast rules they have to work from, where cultural aspects have no significance. They work from British law that is written from a British perspective and to be applied to British people.

While I'm not well-placed to say how much any cultural aspects should apply with Suarez and Evra (or even if they should apply at all), I can see that cultural considerations can have a strong relevance to what was meant by what was said and how what was said could be taken.

In a strict legal sense both players are guilty of racism because the UK's racism laws treat nationality-based comments no differently to how they do racially-based comments. But at the same time the level of either or both comments can be considered of a low enough level that the police might say they'd got no interest in pursuing the matter.

From what's been made public of what has specifically gone on then I'd say that Evra needs to grow up and get a life .... but that's based on me putting aside Evra's claim of having been racially abused "at least 10 times", which if true makes my view there null and void. It's impossible to judge what might be the right outcome without knowing the exact details of everything, the cultural weighting that should rightly be applied, and the true offence caused by what went on (because it's possible that Evra is over-playing his upset, particularly as his first complaint was to French TV and not the ref either on the pitch or after the match). The devil is in the details.

[eFestivals]

Gutted about the result, but thought we played very well and it was a superb game.

yep, I thought Arsenal played very well, and it looked from the start like a game where one goal was going to win it. That goal might have been Arsenal's.

But having said that, City were undoubtedly the stronger team (tho who would think different?). If they replayed that match as it happened yesterday ten times I'd say that City would come out with twice the wins that Arsenal would.

[TheGayTent]

City fans - can you go any lower? "Van Persie is ours". Really? Is that what you want? Citeh used to be my 2nd fave team. Not any more. Dreadful.

[ralph250]

.....because it's possible that Evra is over-playing his upset, particularly as his first complaint was to French TV and not the ref either on the pitch or after the match). The devil is in the details.

[TheGayTent]

Have to say, given the quality of football on show, and the prices being more expensive than most top flight clubs, I'm amazed at the numbers going over the Boleyn this season. Saturday's gate was bigger than more than half of the top flight, and takes the average up to 30k for the season. Averaging more than 3k away too.

Can't stand dirty Leeds, but have to mention their away support too - put many in the premier league to shame.

[eFestivals]

Not going to get into it, but that's incorrect according to the Guardian.

Evra, accompanied by Sir Alex Ferguson, asked to see the referee Andre Marriner, after the match to report the alleged incidents and later expressed his anger in an interview with Canal Plus.

http://www.guardian....z?newsfeed=true

OK, it's that way around.

Which only gets to expose the double standards contained within the comments that have come out of Utd about LFC talking to the press.

[eFestivals]

Have to say, given the quality of football on show, and the prices being more expensive than most top flight clubs, I'm amazed

at the numbers going over the Boleyn this season. Saturday's gate was bigger than more than half of the top flight, and takes the average up to 30k for the season. Averaging more than 3k away too.

that's the result of winning, even winning with hoof-ball if that's how (I don't know either way) WHU are playing under Sam.

While I know you don't like Sam's default style, it appears to be bringing you success.

Can't stand dirty Leeds, but have to mention their away support too - put many in the premier league to shame.

I watched the pompey/soton game yesterday, and it had me considering how the Leeds fans must enjoy enriching the conman. That puts many in the Prem to shame too.

[TheGayTent]

that's the result of winning, even winning with hoof-ball if that's how (I don't know either way) WHU are playing under Sam.

While I know you don't like Sam's default style, it appears to be bringing you success.

[thetime]

.Which only gets to expose the double standards contained within the comments that have come out of Utd about LFC talking to the press.

[eFestivals]

Is it bollocks, that crowd was off the back of two defeats. The attendances are pretty consistent (when compared to other clubs) whether we're winning or losing.

WHU being near the top of the league is pretty consistent too, surely? OK, you started off worse than were you are, so the climb has been pretty consistent.

I'd say you're in the minority with wanting to watch good football. I reckon most fans of a club like WHU would also want success at some level, which you're getting - tho of course the sort of success available to them is tempered with the realism that (just) being in the Prem or fighting your way back there is about the limits of success that a club like WHU can realistically expect in today's football.

You're getting that success, so there's every reason for fans to come along and watch and enjoy that success.

Many are boycotting their home games - that's why their home attendances are (comparatively) low.

Glad to hear it. If Soton can go from L-One to the top of the Champs then so could Leeds if they weren't being milked.

[TheGayTent]

WHU being near the top of the league is pretty consistent too, surely? OK, you started off worse than were you are, so the climb has been pretty consistent.

I'd say you're in the minority with wanting to watch good football. I reckon most fans of a club like WHU would also want success at some level, which you're getting - tho of course the sort of success available to them is tempered with the realism that (just) being in the Prem or fighting your way back there is about the limits of success that a club like WHU can realistically expect in today's football.

You're getting that success, so there's every reason for fans to come along and watch and enjoy that success.

Glad to hear it. If Soton can go from L-One to the top of the Champs then so could Leeds if they weren't being milked.

[eFestivals]

that was mentioned day after the incident, where liverpool were speaking about it for weeks and weeks. Dont let that stop the anti utd brigade though!

If the facts don't fit, just make them up eh.

The only talking there's been from Liverpool is that when asked they've said they're supporting Suarez - no different to Utd supporting Evra.

The only talking to the press by Suarez has been in an interview with a crew from his home's TV station - no different to Evra.

The one difference is that Suarez did so after he'd been told not to. But if Evra is allowed to put his allegations out in the public domain then it's definitely no greater crime to put a defence out there either.

I think if suarez is found guilty on the charge, most on here will still blame evra for the incident. Which is astounding really when suarex had admitted making a racist comment in this country.

Evra has admitted nothing less.

In the eyes of UK law it's beyond doubt that both are guilty of racism by what they've admitted to. Yet only one is up on a charge: hows that happened then?

If Evra's version of "at least ten times" is right then Suarez is guilty of a greater incidence, but that lessens nothing about the guilt of each.

But ... it also appears that Evra's claim isn't substantiated by what's been caught on camera. While that might not be definitive because it's dependent on what the cameras are filming at any moment, I'd have thought it unlikely that none have been caught on camera, which brings into doubt Evra's claim - the claim of someone who has already been judged to make up bollocks to try and get others into trouble under false pretences. Should that be an irrelevance?

And of course, finally, Suarez has not actually admitted making a racist comment, he's admitted making a comment that is deemed racist by UK law - it's a subtle difference in wording of that, but a huge difference in what the reality of things are (just as I'm sure Evra would say if he were to be prosecuted by the old bill for his comment which is without doubt racist by the UK legal definition).

its like an iranian man coming over here and stoning a women to death becuase its okay int here country.

which applies to Evra no less than it does Suarez by what both are meant to have admitted to and put against UK legal definitions of racism.

so if suarez is found guilty will we leave it at that? or keep blaming evra?

I've not blamed Evra. Similarly, I've not blamed Suarez.

If Suarez is found guilty, I'll grasp that there's a big difference between words and intent, and that the cultural angles put a very different slant to things than would be the case if he were English. The verdict proves fuck all, and means very little in relation to what the facts might be.

If Suarez is not found guilty I'll grasp that Evra wasn't necessarily telling porkies and that he might have genuinely been racially offended. The verdict proves fuck all, and means very little in relation to what the facts might be.

It sounds like you won't tho.

[eFestivals]

The majority of WHU certainly don't subscribe to your point of view.

It's not "my point of view". It's an observation, based on you saying about the big crowds.

And while you might like to believe differently, surely those big crowds you've noticed get to prove you wrong? If they found the style of footie more distasteful than they success it's bringing then surely they wouldn't come?

Or are WHU fans just a bunch of mindless sheep?

[TheGayTent]

It's not "my point of view". It's an observation, based on you saying about the big crowds.

And while you might like to believe differently, surely those big crowds you've noticed get to prove you wrong? If they found the style of footie more distasteful than they success it's bringing then surely they wouldn't come?

Or are WHU fans just a bunch of mindless sheep?

[strummer77]

that was mentioned day after the incident, where liverpool were speaking about it for weeks and weeks. Dont let that stop the anti utd brigade though!

I think if suarez is found guilty on the charge, most on here will still blame evra for the incident. Which is astounding really when suarex had admitted making a racist comment in this country.

its like an iranian man coming over here and stoning a women to death becuase its okay int here country.

so if suarez is found guilty will we leave it at that? or keep blaming evra?

Edited December 19, 2011 by strummer77

[eFestivals]

Er the point is that the supporters support the club regardless of whether the team are winning or losing, regardless of whether they like the manager or not, regardless of whether they agree with the manager's tactics or not, regardless of whether they think one of the co-owners is a embarrassing twat, etc etc. That's the nature of the support some clubs get, and others don't.

BTW I didn't say anything about the crowds being big.

Have to say, given the quality of football on show, and the prices being more expensive than most top flight clubs, I'm amazed at the numbers going over the Boleyn this season.

PMSL.

The crowds are bigger than you were expecting given the quality of football on show and the ticket prices.

You believe that's down to WHU's unique supporter base, while recognising that some teams (but not WHU, never WHU ) get their fans via winning.

I'm simply pointing out that the crowds might well be bigger than you were expecting because WHU are winning.

Given that you're 'amazed' at the crowds then you clearly expected WHU to not get those crowd sizes, which gets to prove that you don't really think WHU to be the unique attraction that you're now trying to make out that they are.

So that difference has clearly got to be the winning, or else you being 'amazed' was wrong from the off.

Whichever it is, it can't be both.

[The Nal]

The issue with Suarez/Evra is the context of using the word "negro". They weren't having a friendly chat down the pub. If he was using it to wind Evra up then it could be seen as racist. "Yeah right negro, yeah, yeah, relax negro" etc.

Its like what Louis CK says about the word "Jew". You can say "Hes a Jew" and that fine. But if you say "Hes a Jew" it becomes a racist term.

Very difficult for the FA to come to a conclusion on it.

[strummer77]

The issue with Suarez/Evra is the context of using the word "negro". They weren't having a friendly chat down the pub. If he was using it to wind Evra up then it could be seen as racist. "Yeah right negro, yeah, yeah, relax negro" etc.

Its like what Louis CK says about the word "Jew". You can say "Hes a Jew" and that fine. But if you say "Hes a Jew" it becomes a racist term.

Very difficult for the FA to come to a conclusion on it.

Edited December 19, 2011 by strummer77

[eFestivals]

In one country 'negro/negrito' is friendly, in this country it is mildly offensive/not even a word respectively.

'negro' isn't even by-default offensive in this country. Some black people embrace the word as an accurate application, as it means by default nothing more than 'black'.

For the one use of it he's owned up to for it my take is that he probably didn't mean offence, because his manner was consolatory at the time he used it.

That's not me saying that Suarez didn't mean to cause offence by his use of it BTW - only he can know that side of things.

And that's not me saying that Evra was wrong to take offence no matter how it was meant. For some people it is offensive.

It's because of what I've laid out there that I realise that it's messy, and that whichever way the ruling goes it might not be the right one.

[strummer77]

'negro' isn't even by-default offensive in this country. Some black people embrace the word as an accurate application, as it means by default nothing more than 'black'.

For the one use of it he's owned up to for it my take is that he probably didn't mean offence, because his manner was consolatory at the time he used it.

That's not me saying that Suarez didn't mean to cause offence by his use of it BTW - only he can know that side of things.

And that's not me saying that Evra was wrong to take offence no matter how it was meant. For some people it is offensive.

It's because of what I've laid out there that I realise that it's messy, and that whichever way the ruling goes it might not be the right one.

[The Nal]

For the one use of it he's owned up to for it my take is that he probably didn't mean offence, because his manner was consolatory at the time he used it.

[TheGayTent]

You believe that's down to WHU's unique supporter base, while recognising that some teams (but not WHU, never WHU ) get their fans via winning.

[eFestivals]

See that's the issue. Was it? Or was it used to wind him up in a mock consolatory way?

Context is everything here. Impossible to determine.

Yup. So whatever the judgement is, there's no way of anyone aside from Suarez (and perhaps Evra) knowing whether it's the right judgement.