Football 2011-2012

[The Nal]

Peter Osgood to the City fans!!

Check this out. At 4 mins 50.

[ralph250]

Forgot about ACON and Anelka leaving when discussing Torres yesterday. If losing Drogba and Anelka, then unlikely he'll be let go for now.

Not sure, Barca will panic either. Still got Sanchez and Pedro to play the inside forward roles, plus Fabregas fitting in the same team with Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets (and thus just needing one of Sanchez/Pedro plus Messi). No doubt they have about 20 wonderkinds coming through too.

Re Telegraph article concerning Suarez/Evra. I think its just best to wait until the decision tomorrow. I've not seen anyone else carry those quotes so far (or at least didn't last night when the articles broke), it does carry the good old disclaimer "allegedly said", and always have to wonder where the source information comes from, whether neutral (Ref's report, guys analysing the case) or possibly bias (Suarez camp/Evra camp).

If true, I find the "you South American" interesting. The "is it cos I iz black" would be a bit silly from Evra, but think need to take into account its only a couple minutes after the allegations of racial abuse sufferred occurred, which could clearly upset or rile someone.

Best to just wait and see.

[ralph250]

Saying that about Villa. Barcelona might be able to carry on ok, but huge blow to Spain's Euro chances, given Torres not firing either.

Llorente or Silva as a false 9 like he played against Scotland I guess.

[eFestivals]

Saying that about Villa. Barcelona might be able to carry on ok, but huge blow to Spain's Euro chances, given Torres not firing either.

It depends on the severity of the injury I guess. The little I've read on it hasn't said much of that, but it's quite possible that Villa will be back playing before then - fractures sometimes have just two weeks in plaster, and the player could then get back to training.

At best (which is probably unlikely, but you never know) he might be back playing in less than 6 weeks.

[ralph250]

It depends on the severity of the injury I guess. The little I've read on it hasn't said much of that, but it's quite possible that Villa will be back playing before then - fractures sometimes have just two weeks in plaster, and the player could then get back to training.

At best (which is probably unlikely, but you never know) he might be back playing in less than 6 weeks.

[strummer77]

If true, I find the "you South American" interesting. The "is it cos I iz black" would be a bit silly from Evra, but think need to take into account its only a couple minutes after the allegations of racial abuse sufferred occurred, which could clearly upset or rile someone.

Best to just wait and see.

[eFestivals]

Re Telegraph article concerning Suarez/Evra. I think its just best to wait until the decision tomorrow. I've not seen anyone else carry those quotes so far (or at least didn't last night when the articles broke), it does carry the good old disclaimer "allegedly said", and always have to wonder where the source information comes from, whether neutral (Ref's report, guys analysing the case) or possibly bias (Suarez camp/Evra camp).

If true, I find the "you South American" interesting. The "is it cos I iz black" would be a bit silly from Evra, but think need to take into account its only a couple minutes after the allegations of racial abuse sufferred occurred, which could clearly upset or rile someone.

Best to just wait and see.

No one here has tried to pre-judge it, and with the little info that's around anyway (and that which is can't be entirely trusted) it's not possible to anyway. All I've done is recognised that because of cultural differences in three directions it's far from an easy case to decide over, and that even after a judgement has been made it's quite possible that the 'loser' (whoever it is) will feel mistreated because of those cultural differences. Added to that, there's not any fact that anyone might present which can show how Suarez's words were taken was what he intended of them.

From that article I took Evra supposedly saying "you South American" as his own retaliation to how he took Suarez's words, but that's merely a presumption from very little info. But while if that's what he did and why it's quite understandable, it's also the case that he's as guilty as he believes Suarez to be of the charge that been made against Suarez, which further complicates things.

Or at least it would if Evra was up on a charge too - but he's not. So now I'm interested in why not. It might be that a counter-charge never occurred to Suarez or the club (even tho such things are pretty common in civil cases which go before a county court), or it might be that they'd have felt it would be considered as ridiculous - which of course it is. So I wonder if they might use it to point out that the wording of the charge (or that part of the charge?) against Suarez is stupid beyond belief with the wording that it has. It's obviously a wording that's been cooked up by someone who never considered that references to race and what have you are not automatically racist, in much the same way as some stupid PC people think that classrooms should have chalkboards and not blackboards*.

(* disclaimer: I'm all in favour of them being called 'chalkboards' and not 'blackboards', purely because some people might take things in a way they're not meant).

If Evra is to be excused his own 'racist' (in quotes because they can be disputed as being that really) remarks on the basis that he's been wound up, then surely the same could be applied to Suarez too, on the basis that he'd probably been kicked around the park by Evra for the previous hour?

An aspect that worries me further is Evra having previously been labelled as exaggerating/telling porkies over the Chelsea incident. It suggests to me that the FA might be reluctant to take a similar view this time (if borne out by the facts of course) because it destroys Evra's credibility forever as well as works against the anti-racism thing that the FA want pushed forwards.

Whatever the facts actually are, the whole thing seems to be to be an awful mess where there's no reasonable outcome for at least one concerned - and perhaps both players, and perhaps even the FA.

[eFestivals]

I've only been looking on twitter, but reading up to 6 months. which if so would be June 15th..

Play Italy on the 10th and Rep of Ireland on the 14th.

From what I've read the only real info is that he's fractured his leg and gone to hospital (from Barca's twitter) - and that anything further is conjecture only.

6 months would be a pretty standard figure for anyone to quote, tho it's a figure that's far more relevant to a break than a fracture. It all depends on the severity of the injury.

[5co77ie]

I'm guessing the "you South American" was actually "you Sudaca" a derogative term used in Spain for South American immigrants.

[ralph250]

The racist abuse from Suarez apparently came after this SA comment.

Edited December 15, 2011 by ralph250

[ralph250]

and the whole charge is

"It is alleged that Suarez used abusive and/or insulting words and/or behaviour towards Manchester United's Patrice Evra contrary to FA rules.

"It is further alleged that this included a reference to the ethnic origin and/or colour and/or race of Patrice Evra."

[kaosmark2]

Forgot about ACON and Anelka leaving when discussing Torres yesterday. If losing Drogba and Anelka, then unlikely he'll be let go for now.

Not sure, Barca will panic either. Still got Sanchez and Pedro to play the inside forward roles, plus Fabregas fitting in the same team with Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets (and thus just needing one of Sanchez/Pedro plus Messi). No doubt they have about 20 wonderkinds coming through too.

Re Telegraph article concerning Suarez/Evra. I think its just best to wait until the decision tomorrow. I've not seen anyone else carry those quotes so far (or at least didn't last night when the articles broke), it does carry the good old disclaimer "allegedly said", and always have to wonder where the source information comes from, whether neutral (Ref's report, guys analysing the case) or possibly bias (Suarez camp/Evra camp).

If true, I find the "you South American" interesting. The "is it cos I iz black" would be a bit silly from Evra, but think need to take into account its only a couple minutes after the allegations of racial abuse sufferred occurred, which could clearly upset or rile someone.

Best to just wait and see.

[eFestivals]

True. But then according to that article, it was Negro instead of possible friendly connotation Negrito.

except they both have the same friendly connotations dependent on use and intention.

Neil.

Evra porkie pies is a little misguiding imo. Can understand Liverpool using it as a defence, but to the general punter most equate the Chelsea incident with a racism case, so the implication in the article paints it as Evra misaccusing or exagerating racism.

the Chelsea case WAS a racism case.

Him being ruled as exaggerating that time proves nothing about this incident of course, but it's also a factor that will come into considerations in both directions. It's existence runs the risk of increasing the likelihood of a wrong ruling in this case whichever way the verdict goes.

[eFestivals]

and the whole charge is

"It is alleged that Suarez used abusive and/or insulting words and/or behaviour towards Manchester United's Patrice Evra contrary to FA rules.

"It is further alleged that this included a reference to the ethnic origin and/or colour and/or race of Patrice Evra."

While we can't know if what's printed in that Telegraph article are the real facts, if they are then Evra is indisputably guilty of that charge - even tho he's not up on a charge - while things are less certain for Suarez.

And, BTW ....

The word negro means 'black' in Spanish and Portuguese

<snip>

In Brazil and Portugal, negro is the most respectful way to address people of Black African descent

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negro

.... which makes it just about impossible for Suarez to be being racist by simply using the word 'negro' given his native language, as well as the strong Portugese/Brazilian influences on Uruguayan culture for historical reasons..

Edited December 15, 2011 by eFestivals

[ralph250]

except they both have the same friendly connotations dependent on use and intention.

the Chelsea case WAS a racism case.

Him being ruled as exaggerating that time proves nothing about this incident of course, but it's also a factor that will come into considerations in both directions. It's existence runs the risk of increasing the likelihood of a wrong ruling in this case whichever way the verdict goes.

[eFestivals]

I'm just saying the common reader who wasn't familiar with that case other than it being a racism one, will think Evra has a history of crying wolf.

Evra DOES have a history of crying wolf.

Just because it wasn't for something that was specifically racist doesn't change that.

(tho was racism completely excluded from causing his reaction that time? While he might not have heard the supposed racist words that were alleged to have been used on that occasion, he might well have been aware at the time he intervened that racism was in the mix of the row and that might have been what caused his intervention and over-reaction).

It also shows that he acts before he properly considers things, which might be a part of what's gone on around this incident.

From everything around this case, there's too much that seems muddy around both the players involved to be able to feel sure about any judgement.

[ralph250]

While we can't know if what's printed in that Telegraph article are the real facts, if they are then Evra is indisputably guilty of that charge - even tho he's not up on a charge - while things are less certain for Suarez.

And, BTW ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negro

.... which makes it just about impossible for Suarez to be being racist by simply using the word 'negro' given his native language.

[ralph250]

Evra DOES have a history of crying wolf.

[eFestivals]

If it's according to that article like "nigga", then whilst two friends in Harlem might use it, I as a white caucasian would quite obviously refrain.

yet from what you've quoted, it's nothing at all like that in Uruguay - it's not something that a person has to refrain from because of their own skin colour, and it's not even something that's necessarily used in relation to skin colour.

Even taking cues from how it's used in Spanish and Portuguese isn't safe, because of Uruguay's unique mix of both languages (while still officially Spanish), as well as having a unique mix of South American Spanish/Argentinian and Portuguese/Brazilian cultures. There's probably not a country anywhere else in the world where trying to decipher the cultural nuances is so difficult.

As said, will have to wait and see.

I reckon all waiting will tell us is what judgement has been made.

As I've said all along, there seems to be too many different angles in all directions to feel safe about that judgement whichever way it goes.

[eFestivals]

When? Examples?

that Chelsea case, and the judgement made on it by the FA.

Read the judgment.

the bit you've posted of it doesn't make the whole situation clear.

Evra can be hot-headed for sure, but footballer intervenes in clash is hardly something exclusive to Evra.

true, but being hot-headed enough to lead your team out on strike in the middle of the world cup finals for something other than a money dispute is uniquely Evra's. Even the Dutch with their many problems haven't managed that one.

And actually, wasn't there a race angle of some kind to that SA2010 incident too?

edit: having just read up on it, I was wrong with that which is why I've struck it out.

Edited December 15, 2011 by eFestivals

[The Nal]

Shamrock Rovers fans last night to 'Arry: "You should be in jail, you should be in jail, Harry Redknapp, you should be in jail’.

Also, the media making a big deal of this Balotelli/Richards "bust up" in training yesterday.

The football media really are clueless a lot of the time. Entire articles dedicated to it.

[TheGayTent]

So the blues draw the blues.

Very jealous of Chelsea fans, have always wanted to see a game at Stadio San Paolo, electric atmosphere

[The Nal]

ZENIT ST PETERSBURG v BENFICA

CSKA MOSCOW v REAL MADRID

BAYER LEVERKUSEN v BARCELONA

BASEL v BAYERN MUNICH

AC MILAN v ARSENAL

NAPOLI v CHELSEA

LYON v APOEL

[eFestivals]

|I guess Arsenal will be hoping that Milan don't manage to get Tevez cos for at least three weeks after he gets signed he'll put a bit of effort in ..... before complaining about the weather, the town, his ex being thousands of miles away, having willingly caused himself to take a massive cut in wages, and not being properly appreciated.

[sifi]

Is he not cup tied?