Football 2011-2012

[modey]

Most Utd fans I know, including myself, can't stand the way sky fuck about with the fixtures, the season started nearly two months ago and the match against Norwich on Saturday was our first home game at 3pm

[The Nal]

You're 32 and a Manchester United fan yet you claim you haven't heard supporters that attend matches complain about Sky TV fucking around with the fixture list?

That just doesn't make any sense.

Edited October 4, 2011 by The Nal

[TheGayTent]

Most Utd fans I know, including myself, can't stand the way sky fuck about with the fixtures, the season started nearly two months ago and the match against Norwich on Saturday was our first home game at 3pm

[TheGayTent]

You’re right, it doesn’t make any sense – because that’s not what I said.

What I said was that you don’t hear the fans complaining about it when the TV money contributes heavily to them buying quality players and facilities. Do you think if push came to shove, Utd fans would prefer to go to a match on Saturday evening, or whatever time is considered inconvenient, to see a load of old shit, in a shithole stadium or to see quality players in a quality stadium?

Its a chicken and egg thing.

I completely appreciate the impact this has on smaller clubs by the way but Wigan proved it can be done. By pulling the carpet from under the clubs, you're ensuring what Wigan did can't be done again, with respect to TV revenue anyway.

300 million fans worldwide have to be catered for. Its business suicide to ignore them.

Would you rather watch Wayne Rooney, Phil Jones and Nani on Sunday at 4pm or watch Russell Beardsmore, Remi Moses and Ashley Grimes play at 3pm on Saturday? Because thats the choice, so to speak.

[The Nal]

That's absolute piffle, and if you cannot see why, then I give up.

[kaosmark2]

Yep. "Competition" its called. Its a good thing and its the reason we watch the game.

Take QPR. They want to get Beckham in, mainly for business reasons in Asia. QPR would obviously have to be on the telly there to make it work and start to build a fan base. Thats good business. Makes perfect sense. Shows ambition. I've no problem with that. More exposure for them, more TV money.

Are people saying that we should now pull the ladder away from ambitious clubs like QPR looking to grow their fan bases after 20 years of Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool etc creaming off the top? How is that fair?

[eFestivals]

Do you think if push came to shove, Utd fans would prefer to go to a match on Saturday evening, or whatever time is considered inconvenient, to see a load of old shit, in a shithole stadium or to see quality players in a quality stadium?

The stadium could have been upgraded long before, but instead the people who ran the club you think you love decided they'd prefer to fleece you. Hate them for it, and no one else.

The quality of the play hasn't improved despite the money having increased hugely. The proof is within the fact that English teams do no better against teams from elsewhere in the world than they did 30 years ago.

300 million fans worldwide have to be catered for. Its business suicide to ignore them.

no it's not. They were ignored for 100-ish years, and the football businesses were no more stable or unstable than they are now.

Would you rather watch Wayne Rooney, Phil Jones and Nani on Sunday at 4pm or watch Russell Beardsmore, Remi Moses and Ashley Grimes play at 3pm on Saturday? Because thats the choice, so to speak.

No it's not. It's only the choice when there's money in one country but not others.

So ultimately, what you think is awful is what your choice about things is inflicting on others while you're allowed to enjoy the cream.

Some people love the game the football. Others only love their club and themselves.

Only one side of this has a footballing future - and it's not the selfish side.

[eFestivals]

Give up what?! You never had a point apart from wanting to damn the most widely watched and played sport in the world to the levels it was at 100 years ago.

you mean watched by far more people than it is in the UK even with TV?

[The Nal]

The quality of the play hasn't improved despite the money having increased hugely. The proof is within the fact that English teams do no better against teams from elsewhere in the world than they did 30 years ago.

[eFestivals]

They do no worse either.

agreed. So we're now agreed that all of the extra money has made no difference on the pitch - and so that can cease to be any part of your defensive of money over football.

The rest of your post was your standard ABU stance which I wont respond to as the conversation isn't relevant to Utd alone.

PMSL

I've not mentioned Utd. I've said "the club you love", but that's just as applicable to any supporter of any club who's stadium was almost falling down because the owners would rather pocket the money than upgrade.

If I'd meant Utd and specifically Utd I'd have said Utd.

The driver for the upgrades wasn't actually the Prem anyway, but the Taylor report - so that's no part of the argument either.

Oh, apart from suggesting I'm only a Utd fan and don't love the game. Couldn't be further from the truth but I don't feel the need to qualify myself.

If you loved the game above your club then you wouldn't have a narrow "I'm alright Jack" view based on the fact that you club seems to be fine while others are dragged thru the shit - and dragged thru the shit specifically on what your club (and a handful of others) demanded was done for their own enrichment but not for the good of the game.

[kaosmark2]

I'd argue that football standards have improved over the last 20-odd years. Not because of money and globalisation of talent, but because of fitness and training regimes. Messi's not jinxing round defenders who crawled back from the pub via a chippy at 3am that morning, he's jinxing around much healthier, fitter players.

[modey]

To be honest I was getting to a hell of a lot more games years ago before sky started fucking around with the fixtures and I'd love it to go back to them times, now Utd get a sat 3pm home kick off once every couple of months I can only get to a handful of games, in the past we'd go maybe every other week

You’re right, it doesn’t make any sense – because that’s not what I said.

What I said was that you don’t hear the fans complaining about it when the TV money contributes heavily to them buying quality players and facilities. Do you think if push came to shove, Utd fans would prefer to go to a match on Saturday evening, or whatever time is considered inconvenient, to see a load of old shit, in a shithole stadium or to see quality players in a quality stadium?

Its a chicken and egg thing.

I completely appreciate the impact this has on smaller clubs by the way but Wigan proved it can be done. By pulling the carpet from under the clubs, you're ensuring what Wigan did can't be done again, with respect to TV revenue anyway.

300 million fans worldwide have to be catered for. Its business suicide to ignore them.

Would you rather watch Wayne Rooney, Phil Jones and Nani on Sunday at 4pm or watch Russell Beardsmore, Remi Moses and Ashley Grimes play at 3pm on Saturday? Because thats the choice, so to speak.

[eFestivals]

I'd argue that football standards have improved over the last 20-odd years. Not because of money and globalisation of talent, but because of fitness and training regimes. Messi's not jinxing round defenders who crawled back from the pub via a chippy at 3am that morning, he's jinxing around much healthier, fitter players.

true - but the money side of things hasn't much changed the differential between the different leagues. That was what I was getting at with what I said (I of course can't speak for others).

And those words need a further caveat to avoid a further comeback. Some leagues have risen and some have fallen, but that's to be expected over time - they've never all stayed at the exact same level thru the years, there's always some natural variance.

[The Nal]

you mean watched by far more people than it is in the UK even with TV?

[TheGayTent]

Any idea how much money Shamrock Rovers are getting from TV in the Europa League? Or how much they got for the match last week? For a club the size of Rovers, its a massive amount. Massive. Do you want to deny them that opportunity? I don't.

[TheGayTent]

You don't want people watching the game outside of the UK? Have you any idea how much money televised football brings into the economy? How many pubs are open purely because of televised football?

Do you want to throw that away?

[eFestivals]

You don't want people watching the game outside of the UK? Have you any idea how much money televised football brings into the economy? How many pubs are open purely because of televised football?

Do you want to throw that away?

I thought I'd already made perfectly clear my views on people outside the UK watching? I don't mind by default, but don't believe that a desire to watch English footie should be to the detriment of the game within their own countries - which it always is.

Televised footie brings less into the economy than it would if people went to games instead.

It's defo true that more pubs would shut without footie. But that's not really anything to do with footie, it's to do with a move away from going to pubs to going to other places instead (or nowhere instead).

You don't think the quality of football has improved over the last 30 years?

not relative to a generalisation of all leagues, it hasn't.

I haven't narrowed it down to "I'm alright Jack". Quite the opposite. I've clearly stated that by removing TV money from football it would cut out any other clubs, like QPR or Wigan, from climbing the ladder that the big clubs have already done. It removes opportunity.

and yet the movements of clubs up and down the leagues in the past gets to show it was easier in the past than it is now.

Any idea how much money Shamrock Rovers are getting from TV in the Europa League? Or how much they got for the match last week? For a club the size of Rovers, its a massive amount. Massive. Do you want to deny them that opportunity? I don't.

It's not that I want to deny them that opportunity, I want to give them the greater opportunity of having a sustainable league of quality football - which is what they don't have now, and never will do thru the few crumbs getting thrown their way if they get a lucky draw while all the fan interest is overseas.

They'd stand a greater chance of earning more proprtionally against other clubs in all countries via what I'm saying, and give them a better chance of actually competing rather than being there to make up the numbers.

They might have less actual money by my method, but they'd have a greater spending power because of the reduced spending power of Prem clubs. The amount of money a club has isn't the be all and end all - there's more to it than just that.

[TheGayTent]

Coincidentally, Sky have just announced today that they're moving two more of our games before the new year.

Thanks

[kaosmark2]

true - but the money side of things hasn't much changed the differential between the different leagues. That was what I was getting at with what I said (I of course can't speak for others).

And those words need a further caveat to avoid a further comeback. Some leagues have risen and some have fallen, but that's to be expected over time - they've never all stayed at the exact same level thru the years, there's always some natural variance.

[The Nal]

Do you not understand that if Shamrock hadn't have received a fortune from TV from the Tottenham game, they would still have made a relative fortune anyway. For if they didn't get TV money, because there was no TV deal and therefore nor did any other club, the money they received from the ticket revenue would have been a fortune too when compared to others' income.

Nothing has changed bar the number of zeroes.

£100,000 from one game when your turnover in a season is £600,000 is a big prize.

However, £10,000 from one game when your turnover in a season is £60,000 is still a big prize.

Edited October 4, 2011 by The Nal

[eFestivals]

Well it's driven La Liga to a pure duopoly. Obviously there's always been an element of that, but it's driven it up.

yup - and while we're not in danger of the exact same thing happening just yet (only 'just yet', it'll happen sooner or later ) because of our TV rights being sold collectively, a similar almost-fixed dominance by a set of particular clubs is happening and spoiling the game as a competitive sport.

[TheGayTent]

Nothing has changed in Rovers ascent in the last five years, no. Apart from the new stadium they have to pay for, the jobs, spending, feelgood factor and pride they've created in Tallaght in Dublin (not a privileged area of the city), the extra staff they've taken on, the knock on jobs that have been effected/created, the people in the pubs in Dublin watching the big games that they couldn't afford to go to, the tax the TV companies pay to the Irish government, the jobs Sky and the TV companies create around the country, the jersey sales, the shop in the stadium that sells the merch, employs people and pays tax, the extra public transport laid on in Tallaght now which stimulates the local economy through increased footfall, more shoppers, people staying in hotels, a new nightclub opening up, house prices sustaining rates on par or in excess of similar areas and people buying newer and better TVs to watch the games on as opposed to not watching or going to the games.

Thats off the top of my head.

Apart from that though, no, nothing has changed.

[The Nal]

None of which has anything to do with the point that you are failing miserable to substantiate.

[kaosmark2]

yup - and while we're not in danger of the exact same thing happening just yet (only 'just yet', it'll happen sooner or later ) because of our TV rights being sold collectively, a similar almost-fixed dominance by a set of particular clubs is happening and spoiling the game as a competitive sport.

[kaosmark2]

http://www.sportinglife.com/football/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=soccer/11/10/05/manual_083434.html&TEAMHD=soccer&BID=165

'Arry and Van Der Vaart exchanging complaints in the media.

Amuses me when a player thinks he's too good to do defensive work, and then has a go when the manager brings on a player who will.