Football 2010-2011

[Benj]

He might well have made less mistakes.

But if he'd have made the exact same ones, it's a certainty that Utd would have been able to ride them better than LFC would, due to the different financial positions of the clubs - that was the only thing I was getting at.

[The Nal]

Yes, but Fergie bought Nelly Webb, for crying out loud. And Danny Wallace.

[Benj]

Turns out she's not, my fault for not reading small text on some post somewhere else

Going back to Rafa's signings - would say he's made a lot lot worse than Fergie has, Fergie does seem to get more bad press for his failings though - e.g djemba djema and veron compared to Rafa got over some of the crap players he brought over the years - e.g. that ayala guy

[eFestivals]

Or the fact that club had been managed well for a long period of time. By him

he doesn't run the money side. It was the Utd 'brand' thing that put them in the position they're in where it matters less if fergie spunks money on crap players far less than any on-field activities.

[The Nal]

The problem is Liverpool fans have always wanted to deify their players, they always stating their the worlds best this, "The quickest winger in Chile" that. Then they turn up be average and never get a slating.

Lucas for instance was the "best young player in South America", "Destined to be a Brazil regular" for ages, before they finally gave up on him.

Djemba Djemba turned up at Utd and the fans were like - "Wha?"

[sifi]

Jesus yeah, forgot about that. Was Webb not an international at that stage though? And Wallace wasn't the worst was he?

[Benj]

that's something I don't dispute, but it's still far from clear if there was pressure on him from above to essentially run the strength of the squad down. I doubt things will ever be clear enough so that one version is believable over another.

It is however definitely the case that the biggest run-down in squad strength happened during the time that he was bringing money into the club with his transfer dealings, rather than spending their money.

[eFestivals]

The problem is Liverpool fans have always wanted to deify their players, they always stating their the worlds best this, "The quickest winger in Chile" that. Then they turn up be average and never get a slating.

Lucas for instance was the "best young player in South America", "Destined to be a Brazil regular" for ages, before they finally gave up on him.

Djemba Djemba turned up at Utd and the fans were like - "Wha?"

Yep - because instead of the fans believing by themselves he was shit hot, they'd had fergie banging on about how he was "the new Eric".

From his first kick of a ball, it was very VERY clear that he wasn't and never would be. Hence the "Wha?".

[The Nal]

he doesn't run the money side. It was the Utd 'brand' thing that put them in the position they're in where it matters less if fergie spunks money on crap players far less than any on-field activities.

[Benj]

Yep - because instead of the fans believing by themselves he was shit hot, they'd had fergie banging on about how he was "the new Eric".

From his first kick of a ball, it was very VERY clear that he wasn't and never would be. Hence the "Wha?".

[Benj]

he doesn't run the money side. It was the Utd 'brand' thing that put them in the position they're in where it matters less if fergie spunks money on crap players far less than any on-field activities.

Edited October 14, 2010 by Benj

[eFestivals]

The Utd “brand” in 1986 when he took over from Big Racist Ron wasn’t anywhere near as valuable as Liverpools, who were in the middle of one of the most successful spells in European club history. Fergie inherited a team of crocked drunks and 2nd tier players. Remember it took him 6 years to turn things around and nearly got sacked too.

absolutely - but Utd went big time for the brand thing while LFC didn't.

At that point the gap was created, and it's never been closed.

[Benj]

absolutely - but Utd went big time for the brand thing while LFC didn't.

At that point the gap was created, and it's never been closed.

[eFestivals]

The point I was making was the on field performance, not the financials

but the on-field performance has been helped along by the financials.

If Utd were strapped for cash, then buying (say) E.D-D would have been a disaster for Utd. Because they had 'spare' cash which gave them ability to pretty much ignore the mistake that was 'the new Eric', it wasn't that disaster.

In a comparison with Utd's position, Rafa's purchases had to be more successful just to stay in the same place of trailing Utd. That's all I'm trying to say.

[eFestivals]

LFC couldn't, as they were shite.

LFC could have - being shit at the time didn't stop Utd from pursuing the brand & money thing, did it?

The fact is that they didn't while Utd did, and the delay in getting going with that side of things (which they're still not doing well even now) allowed Utd to get ahead and stay ahead.

The fact that Utd have also had fergie has of course helped that process along for Utd (while the reverse is true for LFC), but what fergie has been able to achieve has to some extent been helped by the money that's been available to him.

LFC f**ked up big time by not recognising what was going to come along with the changes to football they'd helped push for (the formation of the Prem), while Utd recognised it to the full extent.

[The Nal]

absolutely - but Utd went big time for the brand thing while LFC didn't.

At that point the gap was created, and it's never been closed.

[Benj]

but the on-field performance has been helped along by the financials.

If Utd were strapped for cash, then buying (say) E.D-D would have been a disaster for Utd. Because they had 'spare' cash which gave them ability to pretty much ignore the mistake that was 'the new Eric', it wasn't that disaster.

In a comparison with Utd's position, Rafa's purchases had to be more successful just to stay in the same place of trailing Utd. That's all I'm trying to say.

[Benj]

LFC could have - being shit at the time didn't stop Utd from pursuing the brand & money thing, did it?

Edited October 14, 2010 by Benj

[eFestivals]

Yes but Fergie had a lot to do with making that brand by what happened on the pitch in my opinion by playing attacking football and winning things, that came before any big buys – Keano being the first big buy I reckon.

nah, he couldn't have been the first - I'm sure that the first big spend wasn't the UK's most expensive transfer up-to that point.

I can't remember where they fit dates-wise, but there was Sparky, McClair, Strachan and others before him weren't there?

And don’t forget the importance of the expansion at Old Trafford either. Utd were working on that from 1992 and now have close to an 80k seater. Liverpool are still working off a 45k seater stadium.

Yep - which gets to show how forward thinking Utd were on the money side of things, and which gave them the jump on the likes of LFC.

Arsenals healthy financial situation for example can only get better now with the Emirates and the increased gate money. Wouldnt be surprised to see AW spend big(ish) in the near future. Massive in Africa too, although that market isn’t as rich as the Asian market. On that note, did anyone see Louis Theroux in Lagos during the week? Slums, shanties and poverty everywhere but lots of people strolling about in brand new Arsenal jerseys!

yep - arsenal have probably been shrewder than Utd over all with this, but of course many years later, meaning they're playing catch-up.

I noticed those shirts too!

[eFestivals]

Are you saying Utd would be anywhere near as big as they are now worldwide (or indeed the UK) if they'd won f**k all in the last 20 years?

Sorry, I can't make sense of that to give it an answer - I think you typo'd. Try again?

[Benj]

Sorry, I can't make sense of that to give it an answer - I think you typo'd. Try again?

[eFestivals]

Sub the brackets for commas.

nope, that makes it no clearer.

Did you mean to say "wouldn't" and not "would", perchance?

[Benj]

nope, that makes it no clearer.

Did you mean to say "wouldn't" and not "would", perchance?

[Cardboard Box City]

Slums, shanties and poverty everywhere but lots of people strolling about in brand new Arsenal jerseys!

[The Nal]

nah, he couldn't have been the first - I'm sure that the first big spend wasn't the UK's most expensive transfer up-to that point.

I can't remember where they fit dates-wise, but there was Sparky, McClair, Strachan and others before him weren't there?