Football 2010-2011

[TheGayTent]

I'll say again: I've not said any ticketless caused the problems, but they added to them to some extent. A crush with greater numbers is a bigger crush than a crush with fewer numbers.

[strummer77]

Edited April 15, 2011 by strummer77

[worm]

I've never seen the point to this kind of thing to be honest, and that comes from someone who's Granddad died from being run over by a getaway driver from a bank robbery.

Nothing will bring him back, so wasn't bothered whether the driver got prosecuted or not. Will prosecuting Duckenfield or any of the other old bill bring the 96 back? Do they deserve prosecution for making mistakes whilst at work? Or Mackerell for not keeping up to date with safety certificates?

Maybe they do, maybe they don't. Can see both arguments.

[eFestivals]

The crush in that pen should be the same if its 3000 ticketed, or 2900 ticketed and 100 ticketless.

I agree.

But the crush in that pen is greater still if it's 3000 ticketed and 100 ticketless.

Now, I realise that if it can only take an absolute 3000 inside it, there's 100 left outside - but if they're still trying to squeeze thru the doorway to get inside, they still increase the crushing that happens inside. See what I'm getting at?

[strummer77]

Commendable.

I'm of the belief that nothing improves if you focus your attention on blame rather than change.

[TheGayTent]

Now, I realise that if it can only take an absolute 3000 inside it, there's 100 left outside - but if they're still trying to squeeze thru the doorway to get inside, they still increase the crushing that happens inside. See what I'm getting at?

[worm]

True. To be fair though, the change happened fairly quickly and stadiums across Europe are safer because of it.

[eFestivals]

That's only a plausible theory if the numbers are significant. An extra thousand i'd be inclined to agree with you - which wasn't that unusual, there were thousands without tickets that got into the Merseyside Cup Final at Wembley in the same decade - but on the day in question the number of ticketless fans was so minimal it would have made no difference at all to the outcome.

It depends what you mean by "outcome".

I agree that (say) 100 without tickets wouldn't have meant that the incident wouldn't have happened. I've not said anything like that.

But an extra 100 pushing from the back would have added to the pressure on those at the front, if only minimally. And that's a difference in the outcome - which is what I've been getting at.

[eFestivals]

Of course, we're not stupid.

The point is that theory was put forward and ruled out by more than one thorough investigation. The number of ticketless fans there was insignificant - had they not been there the result would have been the same...

See what we're getting at?

But it wouldn't have been "the same".

It might have been very very similar, but not "the same". Each extra person who is pushing forwards adds the force on those being crushed as a result.

Given that everyone who was trying to push their way into that stand was trying to push their way into the stand, and that included some who wouldn't have been there if they'd have stuck with the 'rule' that you should have a ticket, then the force of the crush WAS increased by the ticketless.

If anyone investigated the idea and concluded that that made absolutely zero difference to anything, then they're mightily dumb.

[TheGayTent]

But it wouldn't have been "the same".

It might have been very very similar, but not "the same". Each extra person who is pushing forwards adds the force on those being crushed as a result.

Given that everyone who was trying to push their way into that stand was trying to push their way into the stand, and that included some who wouldn't have been there if they'd have stuck with the 'rule' that you should have a ticket, then the force of the crush WAS increased by the ticketless.

If anyone investigated the idea and concluded that that made absolutely zero difference to anything, then they're mightily dumb.

[eFestivals]

What's dumb, is concentrating efforts on the insignificant and not concentrating on the significant - which is exactly what you are doing.

It happened. It increased the severity by an unknown but probably a very small amount. That makes it significant, if only minorly significant. Actions have consequences.

The only thing which is "concentrating efforts" on anything is the attempts to shout down the true in favour of a a false idea where ALL of the blame for what happened that day lies elsewhere.

Edited April 15, 2011 by eFestivals

[ampersand]

Being from Portsmouth and supporting Man United could be illogical... but if his parent was a Manc, his first game he watched when he was a kid was a Man U game, his wider family were Manchester United fans etc. Why should that young boy of 6 or 7 choose anyone else? And once he's chose it, through thick and thin he should go.

[strummer77]

It happened. It increased the severity by an unknown but probably a very small amount. That makes it significant, if only minorly significant. Actions have consequences.

The only thing which is "concentrating efforts" on anything is the attempts to shout down the true in favour of a a false idea where ALL of the blame for what happened that day lies elsewhere.

Edited April 15, 2011 by strummer77

[TheGayTent]

It happened. It increased the severity by an unknown but probably a very small amount. That makes it significant, if only minorly significant. Actions have consequences.

The only thing which is "concentrating efforts" on anything is the attempts to shout down the true in favour of a a false idea where ALL of the blame for what happened that day lies elsewhere.

[worm]

It happened. It increased the severity by an unknown but probably a very small amount. That makes it significant, if only minorly significant. Actions have consequences.

[The Nal]

Ticketless fans and police act as normal=no disaster

No ticketless fans and police act wrongly=still a disaster

[strummer77]

Ticketless fans and police act wrongly = an even bigger disaster. Which I think is what Neil is saying. I agree with that, it certainly had an effect.

[The Nal]

You examined all the evidence yourself? Because it doesn't look like that effect was very much. No evidence suggests less would have died without them. Who knows- one of those few ticketless fans might have pulled someone up and saved someone? There's no evidence to suggest there was any abnormal activity from fans that day. Therefore Neil focussing on it is bizarre, it's not the cause of the disaster and shouldn't be treated as such.

[Wooderson]

Either way, I just want to know who exactly is at fault and who the justice for the 96 campaign is talking about.

[worm]

Ticketless fans and police act wrongly = an even bigger disaster. Which I think is what Neil is saying. I agree with that, it certainly had an effect.

[brighteyes]

Villa up to 9th... such a close league from 8th downwards. Should be safe though.

I hope West Ham, Blackburn and Blackpool go down. I'm a bit bored of Holloway by now.

[Lithium05]

Aaaaaaaaand we're as good as down

[ampersand]

Aaaaaaaaand we're as good as down

[TheGayTent]

Song of the day sung by Villa...

"London's a shithole, I wanna go home"

Sung without a hint of irony!!

So...weekend in Brighton next season...

[TheGayTent]

Bloody phones...double post

Edited April 16, 2011 by TheGayTent