Football 2010-2011

[eFestivals]

I think it's early and presumptious to write off Utd as a force that's all. perhaps the decline has started who knows. It's a gamble on Rooney's part though.

I think all the signs have been there for a while, but have managed to keep hidden behind the continuing success of the players already there, along with (comparatively) more minor top-ups.

As far as any gamble goes, it's a nahhhhh. Whatever Utd might manage to do financially, at best they'll be in a ball-park so far away from shitty (if that's where he's going) that they're essentially no competition in anything but perhaps the very short-term.

Added with that is fergie's retirement. From Rooney's statement I'd say he thinks it's imminent, but even if Fergie keeps going a while he won't outlast Rooney's career (barring injury, etc). And it might be Moyes.

So a rest-of-career view by Rooney makes Shitty look by far the better bet - and he's got (if he has) the opportunity to move there now, but can't guarantee that he always will. But once he's there he's not too likely to be shipped out quickly.

I've never put a timescale on them coming good, just a belief that some of them will. Also my words have generally been along the line of not being able to write them off at 17-18 like you have.

You have tho often expressed the hope "that this will be the season they come good". You've instead had mostly false dawns.

I have dismissed them, and you've stood up for them - but I'm not talking about those occasions, I've talking of times you've offered up your hopes unprompted.

But to be fair, Nani shows that having faith can pay off (cos he was rubbisssssshhhh), while I can't think of any Utd have sold within the UK who've done anything but fade (Greening has probably fallen the least). Even so, I think the fail rate for most of the 'major' 'kids' will be high.

I'm not sure I did completely. He carried the goalthreat and was massively important, but I've often said the service he's receiving doesn't get the credit it deserves, and the tactics was built around him being the main threat, a given when playing 433 as we did for about 50% of our games. Pretty sure I also said something along the lines of most teams having a focus towards their best player, that they build around and so most stuff will go through him/to him. I also had a conversation with Nal around 3-4 months into the season when I said I felt Evra was playing better, and that Rooney's allround game wasn't as good as previous seasons but he's massively improved his poaching and heading. His touch at the time wasn't as good imo, and he was trying a few too many 40 yard wonders which weren't coming off.

yeah, fair enough I reckon - I commented myself loads in the previous season about the 30+ absolute sitters plus many more very decent chances that Rooney missed (while still getting a more than decent tally) during that season, and he was banging in almost every chance he got last year (till he got injured March-ish time).

Disagree.

It's saying he doesn't trust his team-mates to be good enough, doesn't trust Fergie's judgment on the new signings to be good enough (Smalling, Hernandez, Bebe etc), the existing youngsters to step up, the veterans to continue to be good enough, the Manager and coaching department to improve or motivate those players to be good enough, or the Manager and the scouting department's judgment to make the necessarily signings in the future to rectify if we are falling short.

It's effectively saying he doesn't think Fergie is a good enough manager to win anything without spending big. Whether he was intending it to come out that way, that's the way Fergie will see it.

I guess it depends how you look at it.

From Rooney's side he could well be saying they're not good enough simply because that's the fact; and that fergie's hands are financially tied when it comes to signings. You can't polish a turd. It doesn't have to be being said as any insult.

With regard to fergie, it sounded to me like Rooney doesn't think he'll be at Utd next season.

[The Nal]

Interesting rant from Ian Holloway

[eFestivals]

United would've been better off though.

yep. I realise that.

But what you're saying is that you think it would be better and right for him to have lied to Utd about his intentions, and taken money off them under false pretences, because Utd would gain in the end.

Does money and a pretence of loyalty really win out for you above morality and honesty?

Not saying this was planned, but delaying signing a contract, waiting over the summer, letting yourself get cuptied and then forcing a move for January by disrepecting the team to make your position untenable, knowing that the club are in a weaker position due to the length of time remaining on your contract is a pretty surefire way that any transfer fee Utd receive will be less, giving the possibility for any wages to be more.

again, it comes down to what if any is deception, and what is down to chance.

To me, it sounds like he intended to sign a new contract, but has been tapped up (seems most likely it was at WC). And if we then take the fergie version of events as right (the rooney version seemed, at best, a little confused over some aspects - but that might simply be down to what's been personally him and what's been his agent) then the club were informed almost immediately, and weren't misled.

I'm not sure when Rooney first played in CL. Was it after 14th Aug? Then that was fergie's doing and not Rooney's.

There were also two+ weeks when Utd could have chosen to sell him but didn't. The result is things coming out now. That makes them culpable for now to some extent at least, from their decision not to sell when they could have - after all, they very probably wouldn't have believed that news of it wouldn't have leaked somehow over the many months to the next window (with the 'somehow' including from within the club). It's too big a piece of news for someone not to tell at some point, without that telling (if from Rooney's side) having to be any attempt to force things with the club; you tell a mate, who tells a mate, etc, and sooner or later it reaches the wrong ears. If they thought it wouldn't come out they were fools.

Clubs say players should honour contracts. Not signing a new contract that you don't intend to fulfil IS honouring contracts.

Edited October 21, 2010 by eFestivals

[The Nal]

Another interesting one, from a Chelski fan

From what I've been reading today and yesterday, in the papers, on Liverpool, Chelski and Man City forums, the only people who seem to think Rooney hasnt acted like a total and utter c**t, are Eamon Dunphy (an Irish wind up merchant and occasional pundit), a load of City fans who just want to see Rooney at City so they can say "haha", and a few people on here.

The more I read about him, the deeper understanding I get of how hes thrown professionalism out the window and further dirtied his name.

Maybe Fergies press conference wasn’t the PR stunt we though. I think hes genuinely angry now, not even sad, at Rooneys behaviour.

Edited October 21, 2010 by The Nal

[eFestivals]

Another interesting one, from a Chelski fan

From what I've been reading today and yesterday, in the papers, on Liverpool, Chelski and Man City forums, the only people who seem to think Rooney hasnt acted like a total and utter c**t, are Eamon Dunphy (an Irish wind up merchant and occasional pundit), a few City fans, and a few people on here.

The more I read about him, the deeper understanding I get of how hes thrown professionalism out the window and further dirtied his name.

he's acted no differently to all he did to arrive at Utd in the first place.

[5co77ie]

Holloway says what he thinks:

"I've got big problems with the people who are running football. I know the reasons I think the game is in trouble and you cannot have a Bosman ruling they've got at the moment.

"Manchester United have helped Wayne Rooney's career massively on and off the field. The manager, the club itself has invested in him. They bought him for massive amounts of money as a young man and they're helping him blossom into the player that he is.

"He's one of the best centre-forwards in the world. And if he sees his contract out he's going to be able to walk out of there for nothing. That's the people at the very top of the game's fault.

"Our rules were brilliant. If he was offered the same amount of money again, they could hold his registration and someone would have to pay the fair amount of money for him.

"Just because you're 24, what on earth has that got to do with it? It's just ludicrous. They have the power to change this straight away.

"What if he sits there for 18 months, throws tantrums, doesn't try, doesn't play, and someone's already said to him, 'We'll take you and we'll pay you some of that money we should have paid Manchester United because you can walk out on a free'?

"Do you want to sign a person like that? Do you want to play for a club that says that to you? How do we know it hasn't already happened? The game is wrong. The people in charge of the game are wrong. They are so wrong this is frightening.

"If Alex Ferguson is being bullied by a player and his agent, how wrong is the game? When are you (FIFA and UEFA) going to listen to the people who are involved in the game?

"They say it's not fair on the player. Rubbish. The player has had his wages every week. They bought him, they worked with him, he belongs to them. It's so obvious. The world should change if it's wrong and football should look at itself.

"I'm looking at Alex Ferguson and thinking: 'What a magnificent manager. How can he handle this?' How he feels about Manchester United, how proud he is. Yet Wayne Rooney or his agent can now manufacture a situation like this."

[The Nal]

he's acted no differently to all he did to arrive at Utd in the first place.

Edited October 21, 2010 by The Nal

[ste4_20]

There were also two+ weeks when Utd could have chosen to sell him but didn't. The result is things coming out now. That makes them culpable for now to some extent at least, from their decision not to sell when they could have - after all, they very probably wouldn't have believed that news of it wouldn't have leaked somehow over the many months to the next window (with the 'somehow' including from within the club). It's too big a piece of news for someone not to tell at some point, without that telling (if from Rooney's side) having to be any attempt to force things with the club; you tell a mate, who tells a mate, etc, and sooner or later it reaches the wrong ears. If they thought it wouldn't come out they were fools.

Clubs say players should honour contracts. Not signing a new contract that you don't intend to fulfil IS honouring contracts.

Edited October 21, 2010 by ste4_20

[5co77ie]

Interesting rant from Ian Holloway

[5co77ie]

Oh no, nothing. Apart from coming out with this shit in October. He waited until the end of the season at Everton. Like a professional. Like all professionals do.

[The Nal]

Errr it was Tuesday 24th February 2004 that we started to hear that Rooney wanted to leave.

Edited October 21, 2010 by The Nal

[5co77ie]

Well I'm 100% wrong then!!

Ive been looking at this all day and all thats been said it that it was at the end of the season after Everton finished 17th......

[5co77ie]

Well I'm 100% wrong then!!

Ive been looking at this all day and all thats been said it that it was at the end of the season after Everton finished 17th......

Retraction to Neil if so.....

[ampersand]

Interesting rant from Ian Holloway

[The Nal]

Day after my sister's party I'd been on double vodka red bulls for 12 hours and couldn't believe it - the Mrs suggested he'd make a great partner for Van Nistelrooy as she's a red jokingly, I thought he was off to Arsenal! I remember it was after the Southampton game where Rooney had scored 2 great goals.

Funnily enough the prostitute story broke a few months later, with some Liverpool players involved and we were worried he was off to Liverpool - so wherever he goes next if you read a story about him and prostitutes it means he's off I reckon!

Edited October 21, 2010 by The Nal

[eFestivals]

The Guardian strongly hinted that the leak came from within Rooney's camp, probably his agent.

Edit; from Mondays podcast "Without giving it away who's passed this on, it's clearly from someone senior in Rooneys camp and orchestrated quite co-ordinatingly."

Quite possibly.

That's not Rooney, or necessarily done with his OK.

Agents have their own agendas, as Rooney's discovered previously.

[modey]

I Watched Ian holloways rant on sky sports before, very funny, the man says what he thinks, and he has actually got a point

[ralph250]

You have tho often expressed the hope "that this will be the season they come good". You've instead had mostly false dawns.

[eFestivals]

radio 2 just played a better version. listen to the audio if you can. amazing!

PMSL .... now that's passion. More of that please.

[5co77ie]

[eFestivals]

which players? I might have often said something along the the lines of hope they step up or hope they improve, will need the kids to step up etc, but not sure I've done the whole "this is their season" shtick.

I'm sure you'd have named the players cos you love naming the players. But I can't say I remember, tho I could guess at a few.

But anyway, I didn't say you'd said that "this will be their season", but that you'd HOPED that some would show they've made it that season (or this season even, you've set pretty much the same in this thread at some point).

The point I was making was that despite your hopes, they're not getting better or not getting better fast enough, and seem to be failing to get near your hopes for them.

Plenty of ex-utd youth are playing premiership level though currently (so a pretty high level career)

I was on about those who got shipped out as 'kids', having played just a handful of 1st team games at Utd.

That excludes the ones sold older (Neville, Butt, etc), and of those others you've named only a few are ones I've seen play for Utd, tho it's more than possible that many have and it passed me by.

The point is that players like Fraizer Campbell get to re-enforce Rooney's view - kids who weren't good enough for Utd, examples of where Utd's youth policy has been a waste of time in making the squad stronger.

all playing prem football. David Platt was Utd youth, Robbie Savage:P, Beckham obviously, Pique and Rossi, Chris Eagles might well get another chance in the prem - one of Burnleys brighter sparks last year.

Platt - never played a 1st team game, kicked out as not good enough. That's a youth failure, not a success. But pre-fergie anyway.

Pique & Rossi - weren't they poached from major Euro clubs? Utd never really got anything from their time there (except maybe a decent exit fee?), but not quite the same thing anyway really - no one thinks of Cesc at Arsenal as a player as someone they've brought thru from nowhere.

Eagles is another 'kid' that didn't make it.

Edited October 21, 2010 by eFestivals

[ampersand]

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Edited October 21, 2010 by ampersand

[ralph250]

yep. I realise that.

But what you're saying is that you think it would be better and right for him to have lied to Utd about his intentions, and taken money off them under false pretences, because Utd would gain in the end.

Does money and a pretence of loyalty really win out for you above morality and honesty?

[Paul ™]

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[ampersand]

Take it you found it

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