Trains and Bricks.

[feral chile]

4 minutes ago, LJS said:

I'm sorry.

I know. It's weird, since it's all in the open, but I feel like I've caught people I like and respect, making fun of me behind my back.

It's because of the exclusion factor of referencing someone indirectly, I think.

I wouldn't care if I thought you were a couple of nasty little shits.

It'll all be better after a good sleep, I'm sure.

Edited October 17, 2019 by feral chile

[Ommadawn]

If the contents of this thread are making feral chile genuinely feel as she does, maybe it's time to lock or delete it. No-one should feel anxious or apprehensive about looking at the contents in a thread regardless of the subject.

[feral chile]

9 minutes ago, Ommadawn said:

If the contents of this thread are making feral chile genuinely feel as she does, maybe it's time to lock or delete it. No-one should feel anxious or apprehensive about looking at the contents in a thread regardless of the subject.

Yeah, genuinely anxious. And about admitting it. I usually hide behind humour or aggression.

Thanks Ommadawn.

I also want to make it very clear that I don't think anyone here has been deliberately hurtful. If I did, you would never have known I was bothered by it.

Edited October 17, 2019 by feral chile

[LJS]

19 minutes ago, Ommadawn said:

If the contents of this thread are making feral chile genuinely feel as she does, maybe it's time to lock or delete it. No-one should feel anxious or apprehensive about looking at the contents in a thread regardless of the subject.

As the starter of the thread, I have no objection to it being locked, deleted, prorogued or anything else.

 

it was not my intention to cause distress to anyone.

 

Peace

 

[feral chile]

10 minutes ago, LJS said:

As the starter of the thread, I have no objection to it being locked, deleted, prorogued or anything else.

 

it was not my intention to cause distress to anyone.

 

Peace

 

I know that LJS.

I've always respected your opinion. Which is precisely why I don't like being on the wrong side of it.

(Prorogued ?)

Peace ?

Edited October 17, 2019 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

13 hours ago, feral chile said:

I'm not in a job where I deal with Welsh speakers, which is why I wasn't allowed onto the Welsh course my employer runs for those who have a business need. I did enquire.

yep, it's always for other people to do.  

[eFestivals]

13 hours ago, feral chile said:

It's a horrible thing that a toddler ended up in hospital because of language difficulties, shocking when the language difficulties were in his own area. It would have been horrible the other way round too, and I'd still expect the situation to be looked at.

and yet people who spoke english chose to do medicine in Welsh knowing there was lesser service available.

But it's all the fault of the medial professional who chose to keep being professional rather than unprofessional.  

[eFestivals]

12 hours ago, Ommadawn said:

If the contents of this thread are making feral chile genuinely feel as she does, maybe it's time to lock or delete it. No-one should feel anxious or apprehensive about looking at the contents in a thread regardless of the subject.

on the same basis, I shut down these forums before the end of 1998. 

Oh, I didn't. I'm still here, getting abuse for challenging idiocy and getting abuse for not challenging idiocy.   

[feral chile]

10 hours ago, eFestivals said:

and yet people who spoke english chose to do medicine in Welsh knowing there was lesser service available.

But it's all the fault of the medial professional who chose to keep being professional rather than unprofessional.  

I've asked you and haven't seen your answer. If an English speaker went to a chemist in Cardiff, and there was only a Welsh speaking chemist available, who refused to fill a bilingual prescription, would you think this is OK?

The principle is identical.

Edited October 18, 2019 by feral chile

[feral chile]

10 hours ago, eFestivals said:

yep, it's always for other people to do.  

Now you're just being argumentative.

I'd have loved another chance to learn Welsh. I keep losing what I know for want of someone to speak it with. I was turned down as I have no Welsh speaking customers.

I don't deal with the general public. I deal with large organisations. My team do not deal with the Welsh one.

[eFestivals]

13 hours ago, feral chile said:

I've asked you and haven't seen your answer. If an English speaker went to a chemist in Cardiff, and there was only a Welsh speaking chemist available, who refused to fill a bilingual prescription, would you think this is OK?

The principle is identical.

You've asked me this before and i've answered it before.  

Services in English are well-provisioned so it's very unlikely to ever happen.

You're trying to ignore the *fact* of only a small proportion of people speaking Welsh. That means everyone *knows* there's limited service available.

So if you *choose* to go for the limited service option when you don't have to - which is what happened in this case - then you risk getting that limited service, and the consequences of that limited service coming back on you.

Fantasising that everyone should speak Welsh doesn't get past the fact and reality that everyone does not.

[eFestivals]

13 hours ago, feral chile said:

Now you're just being argumentative.

No, I'm pointing out that you're demanding that others do what you don't do.

 

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I'd have loved another chance to learn Welsh.

you're surrounded by chances that you refuse to take up.

 

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I keep losing what I know for want of someone to speak it with. I was turned down as I have no Welsh speaking customers.

because it's for someone else to do things for you that you can do yourself....?

You'll be waiting a long time for the pixie dust to give you the sense of social responsibility you're demanding from others.

 

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I don't deal with the general public. I deal with large organisations. My team do not deal with the Welsh one.

because Welsh should only be used for business....?  

YOU are the reason why Welsh language use & provision is what it is, feral. No one else. YOU.

Edited October 19, 2019 by eFestivals

[feral chile]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

No, I'm pointing out that you're demanding that others do what you don't do.

 

you're surrounded by chances that you refuse to take up.

 

because it's for someone else to do things for you that you can do yourself....?

You'll be waiting a long time for the pixie dust to give you the sense of social responsibility you're demanding from others.

 

because Welsh should only be used for business....?  

YOU are the reason why Welsh language use & provision is what it is, feral. No one else. YOU.

You are talking absolute nonsense.

A lot of jobs here require Welsh, because Welsh speakers are recognised as having equal rights. There isn't a specific requirement in my job, my employer is a UK employer, but there is a unit of native Welsh speakers, for those who choose to use Welsh. And for the parts of the business who would come into contact with Welsh speakers, they will be trained. They won't open that up to every employee who just fancies learning for personal reasons.

I support their right to speak Welsh.

I have learnt Welsh several times during my lifetime, and have forgotten it each time.

Because I never use it. Nobody I know or have contact with speaks Welsh.

You're being a bit biased, because you're seeing supporting minority groups as forcing Welsh on people. Really, failure to support them would be forcing English on them.

Just like I support the Equality Act, including protected characteristics such as religion, though I'm an atheist, so I support minority Welsh speakers though I don't speak Welsh.

The difference is, the reason I don't speak Welsh is that I can't, despite my efforts, but even if I had no interest in speaking Welsh myself, I'd still support the minority who do.

Edited October 19, 2019 by feral chile

[feral chile]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

You've asked me this before and i've answered it before.  

Services in English are well-provisioned so it's very unlikely to ever happen.

You're trying to ignore the *fact* of only a small proportion of people speaking Welsh. That means everyone *knows* there's limited service available.

So if you *choose* to go for the limited service option when you don't have to - which is what happened in this case - then you risk getting that limited service, and the consequences of that limited service coming back on you.

Fantasising that everyone should speak Welsh doesn't get past the fact and reality that everyone does not.

The area where this happened is full of Welsh speakers, so it was a rare occurrence there too, hence the big deal it caused.

I don't think you fully understand the demographics here at local levels. 

There would be the same consternation there as there would in South Wales, if an English prescription couldn't be filled.

Edited October 19, 2019 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

22 hours ago, feral chile said:

I support their right to speak Welsh.

but you also support some people being forced to speak a language they don't. You said the pharmasist should be legally obliged to service in Welsh.

 

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I have learnt Welsh several times during my lifetime, and have forgotten it each time.

Because I never use it. Nobody I know or have contact with speaks Welsh.

which is precisely why a legal requirement to service in Welsh can never work.

 

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You're being a bit biased, because you're seeing supporting minority groups as forcing Welsh on people. Really, failure to support them would be forcing English on them.

No.  

Supporting minority groups can only work if there's also the people speaking their language there to support them.

When so few speak Welsh, that support isn't there and can't be there.

Unless you start forcing people to speak welsh - which I'm sure i've heard you say was wrong when in history it was welsh being forced to speak English.  

 

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Just like I support the Equality Act, including protected characteristics such as religion, though I'm an atheist, so I support minority Welsh speakers though I don't speak Welsh.

*YOU* don't support them. 

Instead you demand that others support them when they're not more able to support them than you are. 

The only people able to support their Welsh speaking are those who also speak Welsh.

Anyone else is just throwing meaningless platitudes of demanding others do what they don't.

 

Quote

The difference is, the reason I don't speak Welsh is that I can't, despite my efforts, but even if I had no interest in speaking Welsh myself, I'd still support the minority who do.

And funnily enough, the reason that pharmasist couldn't service in Welsh was because he couldn't speak Welsh.

Why is it OK for you but not the pharmasist?

Edited October 20, 2019 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

22 hours ago, feral chile said:

The area where this happened is full of Welsh speakers

not exclusively, and there is no requirement that people living and working in that area speak Welsh.

And even in that area, *everyone* speaks English.
(* well, just about.) 

There's service available in English in 100% of places and services available in Welsh in fewer places.

Guess what? If you choose to use the one with less availability at some point you're likely to hit a block because of it.

 

22 hours ago, feral chile said:

, so it was a rare occurrence there too, hence the big deal it caused.

because it would be idiotic for the Welsh to have a sense of perspective...?  

 

22 hours ago, feral chile said:

I don't think you fully understand the demographics here at local levels. 

The demographics at local levels are fuck all to do with this.

It's *everything* about your demand that someone (the pharmasist) speaks a language they don't speak.

 

22 hours ago, feral chile said:

There would be the same consternation there as there would in South Wales, if an English prescription couldn't be filled.

No, it's not. Not anything like it.

[feral chile]

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

not exclusively, and there is no requirement that people living and working in that area speak Welsh.

And even in that area, *everyone* speaks English.
(* well, just about.) 

There's service available in English in 100% of places and services available in Welsh in fewer places.

Guess what? If you choose to use the one with less availability at some point you're likely to hit a block because of it.

 

because it would be idiotic for the Welsh to have a sense of perspective...?  

 

The demographics at local levels are fuck all to do with this.

It's *everything* about your demand that someone (the pharmasist) speaks a language they don't speak.

 

No, it's not. Not anything like it.

Everybody born here speaks a bit of Welsh. We had Welsh school assemblies and school Eisteddfods. 

Nowadays, both languages have equal status. Lifts, train announcements, signs, prescriptions, all use both languages. 

South Wales is predominantly English speaking, North Wales is predominately Welsh speaking. Both will have bilingual signs and services, because English and Welsh have equal status.

Therefore, it's exactly the same. The demographics are either very relevant, or irrelevant altogether, in either case you'd expect both languages to be covered.

You want it both ways, because you want to give primacy to the English language. That would create a system where those wishing that their services are provided through the medium of Welsh would be treated unequally. This is unacceptable. 

Particularly where Welsh is still the primary language.

You kerp saying I "should" learn Welsh because you're missing the whole point. The Welsh government has a public duty to ensure that Welsh speakers are not discriminated against. To put it another way, to ensure that protected groups are not discriminated against because of language barriers. Whether I personally speak Welsh or not is irrelevant, I'd always be dealt with, and want to be dealt with, in English. I'm never going to become more fluent in Welsh than English, and that's the crux of this. 

I have personally dealt with fluent English speakers who ask for a translator, because there's a big difference in being able to converse colloquially and being able to understand official, technical, formal, medical language. To clarify, people rom the EU, not Welsh speakers.

In my hypothetical, you can't have it both ways. If an English speaking chemist is not expected to deal with a bilingual prescription, then neither is a Welsh speaking chemist.

Nobody (except you) is saying that the specific chemist should necessarily  be bilingual, just that the needs of the customer should be met. They thought bilingual prescriptions should be enough, you'd think so, right? It does sound as if it was someone new to Wales dealing with this, as bilingual prescriptions are usually very familiar within Wales. Each language is represented, so shouldn't really be an issue.

So I'll correct your quote.

"It's *everything* about your demand that someone (the pharmasist) speaks a language they don't speak". 

Unless that language is English.

 

 

Edited October 20, 2019 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

19 hours ago, feral chile said:

Everybody born here speaks a bit of Welsh.

"a bit of welsh" does not mean people are competent to issue medicines in Welsh.

If I went a pharmacist who said "I'll guess at this" I'd find another pharmacist.

 

Quote

Nowadays, both languages have equal status.

Legally, no they don't.  

 

Quote

South Wales is predominantly English speaking

weird, cos my mate when he lived just outside of Cardiff had quite a few welsh-speaking-only kids start at the local infant school each year.

(they of course didn't last long as Welsh-speaking-only).

 

Quote

because English and Welsh have equal status.

legally they do not.

 

Quote

Therefore, it's exactly the same.

Therefore, you need to stop making it up.

 

Quote

The demographics are either very relevant, or irrelevant altogether, in either case you'd expect both languages to be covered.

the demographics don't make someone speak Welsh who doesn't speak Welsh.

 

Quote

You want it both ways, because you want to give primacy to the English language.

I don't want it any way.  

I give primacy to reality, because that's the way it is.

 

Quote

That would create a system where those wishing that their services are provided through the medium of Welsh would be treated unequally. This is unacceptable. 

then tell me how you're going to force non-Welsh speakers offer unsafe services in Welsh.

 

Quote

Particularly where Welsh is still the primary language.

Tell me how it being the primary language enables a non-speaker to speak it. 

 

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You kerp saying I "should" learn Welsh because you're missing the whole point.

no I'm not.

Service can only be universally given in Welsh when Welsh is spoken universally.

 

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The Welsh government has a public duty to ensure that Welsh speakers are not discriminated against.

it's not discriminating against Welsh speakers to be unable to speak Welsh.  

Or it is, and YOU're the one doing the discrimination.

 

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Whether I personally speak Welsh or not is irrelevant

but whether a pharmacist speaks Welsh *IS* relevant.

 

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I have personally dealt with fluent English speakers who ask for a translator, because there's a big difference in being able to converse colloquially and being able to understand official, technical, formal, medical language.

And if a Welsh speaker isn't available to you....?  

And you're right, a few words of Welsh is very very different to being professionally competent in medical Welsh.

 

Quote

In my hypothetical, you can't have it both ways.

In your hypothetical people who don't speak Welsh are suddenly able to speak Welsh.

In reality that's laughable.

 

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If an English speaking chemist is not expected to deal with a bilingual prescription, then neither is a Welsh speaking chemist.

Who said that? Not me.

 

Quote

Nobody (except you) is saying that the specific chemist should necessarily  be bilingual

PMSL  

YOU said it was wrong that the chemist refused to service in welsh.

 

Quote

, just that the needs of the customer should be met.

only possible if someone can speak a language they don't speak.  

 

Quote

So I'll correct your quote.

"It's *everything* about your demand that someone (the pharmasist) speaks a language they don't speak". 

Unless that language is English.

What?

Tell me how a chemist can service in Welsh when he doesn't speak Welsh. Until you can, that service is not available in Welsh.

Edited October 21, 2019 by eFestivals

[gary1979666]

Maybe take a few online classes in the time spent on these circular arguments!   

[feral chile]

6 hours ago, eFestivals said:

"a bit of welsh" does not mean people are competent to issue medicines in Welsh.

If I went a pharmacist who said "I'll guess at this" I'd find another pharmacist.

 

Legally, no they don't.  

 

weird, cos my mate when he lived just outside of Cardiff had quite a few welsh-speaking-only kids start at the local infant school each year.

(they of course didn't last long as Welsh-speaking-only).

 

legally they do not.

 

Therefore, you need to stop making it up.

 

the demographics don't make someone speak Welsh who doesn't speak Welsh.

 

I don't want it any way.  

I give primacy to reality, because that's the way it is.

 

then tell me how you're going to force non-Welsh speakers offer unsafe services in Welsh.

 

Tell me how it being the primary language enables a non-speaker to speak it. 

 

no I'm not.

Service can only be universally given in Welsh when Welsh is spoken universally.

 

it's not discriminating against Welsh speakers to be unable to speak Welsh.  

Or it is, and YOU're the one doing the discrimination.

 

but whether a pharmacist speaks Welsh *IS* relevant.

 

And if a Welsh speaker isn't available to you....?  

And you're right, a few words of Welsh is very very different to being professionally competent in medical Welsh.

 

In your hypothetical people who don't speak Welsh are suddenly able to speak Welsh.

In reality that's laughable.

 

Who said that? Not me.

 

PMSL  

YOU said it was wrong that the chemist refused to service in welsh.

 

only possible if someone can speak a language they don't speak.  

 

What?

Tell me how a chemist can service in Welsh when he doesn't speak Welsh. Until you can, that service is not available in Welsh.

Wait.

Have you missed the point, from the very start, that the prescription, like every prescription in Wales, was bilingual?

I even posted a copy of it.

He refused it because it was "half in Welsh".

The Welsh half of the bilingual prescription ?

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he was new to Wales and didn't know the system, though that in itself would be hard to imagine.

The locals took a more cynical view.

It certainly seemed unnecessary for a toddler to end up in hospital because of this.

The system failed that toddler, and his parents, who have every right to speak their mother tongue.

Edited October 21, 2019 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, feral chile said:

He refused it because it was "half in Welsh".

No, he refused it because he didn't understand what was written on it.

That meant he didn't feel able to safely prescribe what he could read.

It's called "professional standards".

[eFestivals]

10 minutes ago, feral chile said:

It certainky seemed unnecessary for a toddler to end up in hospital.

because the kid wouldn't be in hospital - or the morgue - from a guessed-at prescription?

He put his professional standards first, as he should have done.

[feral chile]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

No, he refused it because he didn't understand what was written on it.

That meant he didn't feel able to safely prescribe what he could read.

It's called "professional standards".

Most English speaking chemists here in South Wales wouldn't understand the Welsh half. We don't seem to have a problem here, we just read the English half.

The reason this seemed weird is because it was refused in a Welsh speaking area. Us Wenglish don't have any problem with bilingual prescriptions, we just read our own language. It's very strange, in an area where most people could probably read both languages, that it became an issue.

Or do you think that all South Walian chemists are fluent in both languages?

Edited October 21, 2019 by feral chile

[feral chile]

5 hours ago, gary1979666 said:

Maybe take a few online classes in the time spent on these circular arguments!   

Neil?

We could go round in Welsh circles for a change ?

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, feral chile said:

Most English speaking chemists here in South Wales wouldn't understand the Welsh half. We don't seem to have a problem here, we just read the English half.

and that's fine. If they feel they understand the prescription there's no reason they shouldn't issue it.

We're talking about an instance where he couldn't understand the prescription. 

What other chemists do with a different understanding is of no relevance to this particular instance.