Brexit Schmexit

[eFestivals]

13 hours ago, Lad said:

Two hopes.Bob Hope and no hope.

you reckon?

When even the prize (knob) brexiteers don't know what the fuck they're doing, what exactly are the benefits? No one knows.

It'd need a 2nd - sorry, 3rd - vote of course, but "the will of the people" is the will of the people and you'd have to suck it up, exactly as you've said it should work.

[Lad]

38 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

you reckon?

When even the prize (knob) brexiteers don't know what the fuck they're doing, what exactly are the benefits? No one knows.

It'd need a 2nd - sorry, 3rd - vote of course, but "the will of the people" is the will of the people and you'd have to suck it up, exactly as you've said it should work.

Is that you Gina?

I'm always in favour of democracy and not just when the vote goes my way.Suppose that's the difference between many on your side of the argument and the rest.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, Lad said:

Is that you Gina?

so c'mon then ... why's it worthwhile? As I said, no one knows.

Or do you? I'd love to hear why you think it's worthwhile, if you do.

[zahidf]

https://www.theguardian.com/global/2017/aug/26/labour-calls-for-lengthy-transitional-period-post-brexit#img-1

Labour on the side of staying in the single market and freedom of movement 

 

Good. Not as good as Remaining in the EU, but better than a stupid hard brexit

[eFestivals]

6 hours ago, zahidf said:

https://www.theguardian.com/global/2017/aug/26/labour-calls-for-lengthy-transitional-period-post-brexit#img-1

Labour on the side of staying in the single market and freedom of movement 

 

Good. Not as good as Remaining in the EU, but better than a stupid hard brexit

read more than the headline.

 

[zahidf]

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

read more than the headline.

 

So you dont agree with Labour's shift?

 

[GlastoSimon]

Back at where Cameron was pre-referendum basically then. Whether the EU is willing to listen on ideas along the lines of FoM numbers being applied on a country by country basis etc. is another matter. Not convinced they are.

Coming straight out of the SM/CU is a disaster, assuming it still happens.

[eFestivals]

22 hours ago, zahidf said:

So you dont agree with Labour's shift?

not really. I mean, it's am improvement, but barely.

Meanwhile less than a week ago Jezza said staying in the single market was impossible as it was the same as staying in the EU, and the policy now adopted is nearer the policy of those recently 'disiplined' by Jez than it is anything Jez has been saying.

And it's ultimately the same 'cake and eat it' as it's ever been, an idea so self-serving and stupid that even the tories wised up to how stupid it was 6+ months ago.

And they say that Jez has principles, when the only 'principle' in play is trying to maximise voter support if there were an election by trying to suggest that Labour would stay in. It's as dishonest as UKIP or the SNP, by trying to pretend to be all things to all people while being mostly vacuous.

The only principle that counts here is what is best for the people of the UK, because anything that Jez might do to improve people's lot is dependent on the economics. All being poorer together is not the 'better equality' anyone voted for.

[eFestivals]

22 hours ago, zahidf said:

 

 

The second is nothing of official party policy.

The first is some worthless spin, and a laughable claim when measured against the words of Mr Principled ... either that, or the words of Mr Principled are nothing of the kind.

[eFestivals]

21 hours ago, GlastoSimon said:

Back at where Cameron was pre-referendum basically then.

exactly. It's like the last 2 years haven't happened, that's how fucking stupid Labour are being about this. Cake and eat it. British exceptionalism.

And ....what have some been saying about how evil the Cameron/Blairite centre ground axis of evil neoliberal consensus was/is? Jez and his supporters seem to be adopting the Blairite centre ground and neoliberal consensus policies.

[eFestivals]

just having a read of Davies' 'progress' document, available here:-
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/641334/2017-08-30_-_EU_UK_Comparison_Table_CR_AUGUST_day_2_FINAL_AGREED_VERSION_AGREED_with_Cion_V2.2.pdf

It's quite an interesting read. Amongst other things it's pretty clear that the EU are trying to keep primacy over UK law, which is taking the piss. 

Someone pointed me at something written by Yanis Varoufakis the other day. I'm no fan of his, but his angle was that the EU doesn't do negotiation, and instead tries to impose the unacceptable when in a 'negotiation'.

It's pretty clear here that the EU is taking a position it knows the UK can't accept, little different to the various 'cake and eat it' positions coming from the UK.

Gonna be interesting.

[eFestivals]

[Lad]

8 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

You're getting as bad as twitter boy.Absolutely hilarious and so,so true.Still panting for disaster. 

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, Lad said:

You're getting as bad as twitter boy.Absolutely hilarious and so,so true.Still panting for disaster. 

I posted it cos it was a bit better than most.

As for disaster, you can't name any benefits from brexit. I keep on asking and only hear silence.

Which is probably because you know it'll be that disaster. Either that, or you're too stupid to understand that when prices go higher as they will via tariffs, you get poorer and british exports shrink.

Edited November 14, 2017 by eFestivals

[Lad]

11 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I posted it cos it was a bit better than most.

As for disaster, you can't name any benefits from brexit. I keep on asking and only hear silence.

Which is probably because you know it'll be that disaster. Either that, or you're too stupid to understand that when prices go higher as they will via tariffs, you get poorer and british exports shrink.

Yep that makes sense.Wur doomed.

 

One of the biggest advantages is the crumbling and mass hysteria of the wet wipe classes.Been great to watch. Maybe we can see advantages in the future when large parts of the establishment aren't hell bent on sabotage and kissing technocratic arse.What where you expecting by now?World peace and the elimination of disease?

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, Lad said:

One of the biggest advantages is the crumbling and mass hysteria of the wet wipe classes.

I'm so very glad you're getting something tangible in exchange for higher unemployment, fewer opportunities, and greater poverty.

 

Quote

Been great to watch. Maybe we can see advantages in the future when large parts of the establishment aren't hell bent on sabotage and kissing technocratic arse.What where you expecting by now?World peace and the elimination of disease?

Just a worthwhile reason for brexit from the brexiters.

No one is able to give one. 

Is that because you and fellow thinkers are cleverer than everyone else, or for other reasons?

Edited November 14, 2017 by eFestivals

[Lad]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

I'm so very glad you're getting something tangible in exchange for higher unemployment, fewer opportunities, and greater poverty.

 

Just a worthwhile reason for brexit from the brexiters.

No one is able to give one. 

Is that because you and fellow thinkers are cleverer than everyone else, or for other reasons?

Funny that you mentioned higher unemployment when the figures are lower than for many years.The reasons have been  gone over and over ad nauseum.Some of us are so mad that we prefer self determination to an technocratic dictatorship. If you had even a sliver of honesty you'd admit that the commission types don't want an agreement at any price.Plenty of politicians in EU countries can see this as can business leaders.The only people who can't are the scientologists who still cling on to the superstate dreams.

I suppose you've been suckered into the liberal way of pretending somewhere along the way.

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, Lad said:

Funny that you mentioned higher unemployment when the figures are lower than for many years.

we're still in the EU.

5 minutes ago, Lad said:

we prefer self determination

And yet you don't have a clue what it is you actually want to do with it.  Cake and eat it is not a policy, it's a fantasy.

5 minutes ago, Lad said:

If you had even a sliver of honesty you'd admit that the commission types don't want an agreement at any price.

Of course they don't, same as May says a no deal is better than a bad deal. Both want a deal at the right price for them.

I'm not so stupid as to think either side would accept anything for a deal, and i've been happily critical of some of what the EU is asking for.

If we're going to get a deal the deal will be a worse deal than we had when in the EU. I've been saying that since before the vote, and logic says it cannot be different to that.

9 minutes ago, Lad said:

Plenty of politicians in EU countries can see this as can business leaders.

And only the most self-centred would think differently, as they think everyone else should do what they say just because they want it.

You think the EU should give the UK everything it wants just because. You think everything Farage says is true just because. You think everything Trump says is true just because. And you think brexit is worth it because you get to be destructive against those you hate just because.

With personal standards like that you make a ponzi scheme look honest.

[Lad]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

we're still in the EU.

And yet you don't have a clue what it is you actually want to do with it.  Cake and eat it is not a policy, it's a fantasy.

Of course they don't, same as May says a no deal is better than a bad deal. Both want a deal at the right price for them.

I'm not so stupid as to think either side would accept anything for a deal, and i've been happily critical of some of what the EU is asking for.

If we're going to get a deal the deal will be a worse deal than we had when in the EU. I've been saying that since before the vote, and logic says it cannot be different to that.

And only the most self-centred would think differently, as they think everyone else should do what they say just because they want it.

You think the EU should give the UK everything it wants just because. You think everything Farage says is true just because. You think everything Trump says is true just because. And you think brexit is worth it because you get to be destructive against those you hate just because.

With personal standards like that you make a ponzi scheme look honest.

But what happened to the firm predications from Cameron,Osborne and your bessie from Goldman Sachs of immediate disaster with unemployment? You'd have thought there be nothing left in the country.

 

My advice is don't make up a load of things and project it as someone else's opinion. It makes you look ridiculous and dishonest.I've never given a flying one for handwringers until they wanted to slag me off.Then its funny to watch the unbelievable crumble.You and twitter boy are two peas in a pod and the hate almost always come from your side of the debate.Especially when they squeal about racism it's a guarantee of the hate.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, Lad said:

But what happened to the firm predications from Cameron,Osborne and your bessie from Goldman Sachs of immediate disaster with unemployment? You'd have thought there be nothing left in the country.

Or alternatively, I'd know you're too stupid to understand what was said &/or the context it was said within.

But i already knew that, from when you voted brexit.

They were predictions based on invoking a50 immediately, as Cameron said he'd do.

Did you miss what was essentially Osborne's emergency budget? That had the BoE cut interest rates, that had the BoE do yet another round of borrowing disguised as QE, and where Hammond had to put aside £60Bn for the consequences of brexit?

Did you miss the pound crashing, and the inflation that's happening now as a consequence?

Brexit won't be the end of the world, but it will be economically damaging. In fact it's already cost us more than 50 years of EU payments and we haven't even left yet.

 

1 minute ago, Lad said:

My advice is don't make up a load of things and project it as someone else's opinion.

says the man who used to pretend to be a socialist. :lol:

 

1 minute ago, Lad said:

It makes you look ridiculous and dishonest.I've never given a flying one for handwringers until they wanted to slag me off.Then its funny to watch the unbelievable crumble.You and twitter boy are two peas in a pod and the hate almost always come from your side of the debate.Especially when they squeal about racism it's a guarantee of the hate.

So you do the same thing as the remoaners and regard yourself as something better.

You might have noticed I have my own brain. I'm a sop for no one.

Can't say the same can you Trumage boy? 

 

[feral chile]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/austerity-not-brexit-has-doomed-the-tory-party/ar-BBEWat3?li=AAmiR2Z&ocid=spartanntp

I agree with everything in here, as it's what I felt from the start.

brexit (and Corbyn fandom) was a reaction to austerity measures that went on too long, with no signs of economic improvement.

It always smacked of 'you tighten your belts so some of the rest of us will be OK'.

[feral chile]

56 minutes ago, Lad said:

Funny that you mentioned higher unemployment when the figures are lower than for many years.The reasons have been  gone over and over ad nauseum.Some of us are so mad that we prefer self determination to an technocratic dictatorship. If you had even a sliver of honesty you'd admit that the commission types don't want an agreement at any price.Plenty of politicians in EU countries can see this as can business leaders.The only people who can't are the scientologists who still cling on to the superstate dreams.

I suppose you've been suckered into the liberal way of pretending somewhere along the way.

The reason I opposed Brexit is that I interpret that differently from you. I interpret it as the Cabinet  (and business) wanting self determination so they can shit on the rest of us without any inconvenient interference from EU regulations.

We - me, you, the guy next door - don't get self determination. We just get different faces at the master's table.

Edited November 14, 2017 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, feral chile said:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/austerity-not-brexit-has-doomed-the-tory-party/ar-BBEWat3?li=AAmiR2Z&ocid=spartanntp

I agree with everything in here, as it's what I felt from the start.

brexit (and Corbyn fandom) was a reaction to austerity measures that went on too long, with no signs of economic improvement.

It always smacked of 'you tighten your belts so some of the rest of us will be OK'.

except it clearly hasn't doomed the tory party, as they're still polling at around 40%.

And most people are smart enough to know that you can't keep on spending more than you. It's not free, it's shitting on another generation, having others pay your unaffordable want.

There's good arguments to be had around how exactly that 'austerity' is done, but the need for 'austerity' is (or was, when it started) beyond dispute.

 

[feral chile]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

except it clearly hasn't doomed the tory party, as they're still polling at around 40%.

And most people are smart enough to know that you can't keep on spending more than you. It's not free, it's shitting on another generation, having others pay your unaffordable want.

There's good arguments to be had around how exactly that 'austerity' is done, but the need for 'austerity' is (or was, when it started) beyond dispute.

 

I thought it had all been disproved decades ago, and the US was cited as the way to do it right - spend your way out of it, create more demand, not less?

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, feral chile said:

I thought it had all been disproved decades ago, and the US was cited as the way to do it right - spend your way out of it, create more demand, not less?

You can only spend your way out of a slump, to take you back to 'normal'.

You can't sustainably artificially over-inflate an economy. That's essentially what Greece were doing with underhand borrowings, till the shit hit the fan.

This is what renound leftist economist Paul Krugman says about it...
let me tell you about a dirty little secret of economics — namely, that we don’t know very much about how to raise the long-run rate of economic growth. Economists do know how to promote recovery from temporary slumps, even if politicians usually refuse to take their advice. But once the economy is near full employment, further growth depends on raising output per worker. And while there are things that might help make that happen, the truth is that nobody knows how to conjure up rapid productivity gains.
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/19/opinion/voodoo-jeb-style.html

Our economy was, essentially, artificially over-inflated. That's what the crash was about. There's (essentially) no bounce-back to be had from it, and if we want more we have to produce more.
(not that producing more fits well alongside the dreams of a greener world).

There is no magical human right to an ever-growing more.