Time to resurrect Rock Against Racism?

[waterfalls212434]

13 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

we've also seen where false smears get you. You can't paint someone as the devil with lies as Clinton and the whole of the american establishment tried to do. It's those lies which are driving a lot of your reaction to Trump, I reckon.

If you read what many Trump voting Americans say, you'll see very many admit to knowing Trump's as big a liar as Clinton. Trump won with that because he wasn't being a liar while pretending to be nice and clean and honest (while lying). Trump went the other way, and said to himself "if I'm painted as a liar I can tell the biggest lies and still only be a liar". So the lies got bigger, and he got more popular because people appreciated the pisstake back onto Clinton.

Sensible politics arrives when everything comes back down to earth, out of the lie-osphere and back into reality. And one reality that has to be faced up to is that Trump is not the devil he's been painted as, no matter how bad the real Trump might be.

I detested Clinton as much as I detested trump both evil but for differing reasons, Clintons a war mongering psychopath...but Clinton is not the one with the power now!

Oh and for once I aggree....trump may not be the devil..I see him as boris johnson like...a bumbling fool...but with cleverer and more dangerous people underneath him as his vice pres and selected appointments so far may well turn out to be....and thats what people have an issue with....you wouldnt see nearly as much anger aimed at the man if it wasnt for the fact he seems to be putting together such a band of right wing extremists around him.

Mind you mike pence was a good choice....I mean who on the left would want trump impeached or whatever now? given that pence would take his place and be 10 times worse!

Edited November 22, 2016 by waterfalls212434

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, zahidf said:

I believe i have added nuance to my previous statements: Not all trump supporters are racist (Though a disturbingly high number are or feel happier to openly express racism for some reason) but they were willing to turn a blind eye to his corruption, open boasts about sexual assault, and open racism for the promise of 'More Jam'.

A disturbingly high number would be at least 10 million being clearly active right now, based on the number of votes Trump got (about 60M). Really? PMSL :lol:

What about if they couldn't turn a blind eye to Trump's corruption AND Clinton's corruption? Who do they vote for then?

What about if they couldn't turn a blind eye to Trump's links to sexual assault AND Clinton's links to sexual assault? Who do they vote for then?

What about if they couldn't turn a blind eye to Trump's racism while condemning Saudi AND Clinton's bombing of races while lauding Saudi? Who do they vote for then?

What about if they couldn't turn a blind eye to Trump's more jam while seeing it was the only jam on offer? Who do they vote for then?

 

1 minute ago, zahidf said:

Anyway, im sure he will prove most of his doubters wrong unfortunately. I just hope the damage is limited to the US and we avoid it (Though brexit will do more than enough unnecessary damage anyway alas)

'politician fucks up' isn't limited to only those who you might think will make a bad president. Just on the law of averages he's more likely to fuck up badly somewhere than isn't.

Where that fuck up might be we've little idea just yet, but a few first action plans are leaking out, and (when i last looked this morning) it's the sort of more-general stuff you might expect, cancelling TPP amongst other things. It doesn't seem like death camps are top of his plans.

You've alleged all sorts of anti-minority actions he'll take, that his team includes "a literal nazi" and said people should be "terrified" of his plans. I strongly suspect it'll be you that's proven wrong.

 

[scrippit]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

You've alleged all sorts of anti-minority actions he'll take, that his team includes "a literal nazi" and said people should be "terrified" of his plans. I strongly suspect it'll be you that's proven wrong.

 

I hope you are right.

Most people's political ambitions would have been enbded by this. I have a disabled daughter. I believe I have every right to hate this man with every fibre of my being and I do. Without any irony or guilt, I wish him a great deal of ill.

[waterfalls212434]

2 minutes ago, scrippit said:

I hope you are right.

Most people's political ambitions would have been enbded by this. I have a disabled daughter. I believe I have every right to hate this man with every fibre of my being and I do. Without any irony or guilt, I wish him a great deal of ill.

Likewise.......

 

[eFestivals]

13 minutes ago, scrippit said:

I hope you are right.

Most people's political ambitions would have been enbded by this. I have a disabled daughter. I believe I have every right to hate this man with every fibre of my being and I do. Without any irony or guilt, I wish him a great deal of ill.

This has already been mentioned elsewhere about Trump, and that of everything it's the one that should have seen him brought down. I can't disagree. It can be labelled many things, but nazi doesn't apply, neither does 'terrifying'.

And i have no problem to him being condemned on what he's said or done, but when some people are trying (and some have been on these forums) to convince others of how evil he is on a false basis they've become everything that Trump is.

All the same, I hope you still might appreciate that someone might react to him as you have but still end up concluding he's preferable to the other candidate to be president. People had to make a choice from 2 very flawed candidates.

Edited November 22, 2016 by eFestivals

[Cornelius_Fudge]

3 hours ago, scrippit said:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-racist-examples_us_56d47177e4b03260bf777e83  good article that uses supporting evidence to answer that very question and the tacit KKK support and other examples of his bigotry. Enjoy.

And yet here we are.

 

His campaign did. He has not personally shut them down, even since he won. See above.

But a lot of what in that article is not telling the whole truth, it's only telling the side the liberals want to hear.
I've already shown you evidence to prove that he did denounce the support of the KKK and other radical groups - which straight away proves that whoever wrote this article isn't telling the whole true. It's bullshit and you must be able to see that? You don't just believe everything you read, right?

There is nothing in the rest of your article to suggest that he thinks white people are better than other races or that he hates all blacks, all muslims, all mexicans. Please show evidence of him saying this or thinking this.

He might have denied a lot of black people to live in his buildings, but was it because of their colour or because they had bad loans?
Did he dislike the Mexican judge because he was Mexican, or because Trump thought he might not be impartial because the Wall was one of his main, or mainly talked about, policy's?

You might like to write populist 'and yet here we are' rhetoric but at least consider the true facts, not just your feeelings or opinion of everything. How can the Left ever learn something if they just think they're correct about everything?

Also, have you seen some of the stuff that Black Lives Matter have been saying about white people? 'They're all racists, they're all part of a conspiracy against black people, they're all part of this institutional racism against black people and white people are the cause of all problems within the black community, because of white privelege?'

Surely that is an actual monolithic, racist opinion - that a whole other race causes all of your problems in your life. Just like the Nazis did with the Jews. Yet, I don't see you calling them out for being racist against white people.

Unless we stop all forms of racism and the lies that perpetuate it, we'll never progress and I have to call you out on your bullshit and lies because it doesn't help anyone. It's just a waste of money and people's time.
 

[Cornelius_Fudge]

18 minutes ago, scrippit said:

I hope you are right.

Most people's political ambitions would have been enbded by this. I have a disabled daughter. I believe I have every right to hate this man with every fibre of my being and I do. Without any irony or guilt, I wish him a great deal of ill.

As much as I respect your right to your own feelings, they are only your feelings.

My grandfather died of a horrible battle with cancer. Does that mean I hate every person who makes cancer jokes? No.

[scrippit]

2 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

Likewise.......

Yep, seen that and I think it is frightening. Worth listening to this tosh right through to get a feel for  what is being spawned here...

 

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

All the same, I hope you still might appreciate that someone might react to him as you have but still end up concluding he's preferable to the other candidate to be president. People had to make a choice from 2 very flawed candidates.

Yes, perhaps that is the biggest sadness. 

[Cornelius_Fudge]

1 hour ago, scrippit said:

In provided some referenced evidence about his monolithic references but it was ignored. Here it is again: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-racist-examples_us_56d47177e4b03260bf777e83 worth reading the whole article which is reasonably balanced in my view (I agree that much comment is not).

I have never mentioned hating Trump or all Trump supporters - you are putting words in my mouth. I have not said he deplored all blacks or denigrated all mexicans as you have implied. I cannot, however, ignore what I draw from my own research - and that is that the alt-right is an alternative name for plain and simple hard right nationalism and it is more confident and growing faster than at any time since the 70s. That is worth resisting. Peacefully.

I am not, and never have, espoused 'hate' as a solution and I resent any such implication. I am therefore throwing the towel in Neil and deferring to your clearly superior factual knowledge. I am gonna sit back and do some 'hoping' instead. I'm sure plenty of perfectly reasonable citizens did so in the '30s.

Never seems to have worked in the past. Do you suppose it will this time around?

Hope, not hate. 

 

 

You wrote this three pages ago that Trump hates all mexicans, all blacks, all hispanics, all gays, all women!?!!?

You're flip flopping around like a salmon

[scrippit]

double post

 

Edited November 22, 2016 by scrippit
double post

[zahidf]

 

[Alex DeLarge]

7 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

As much as I respect your right to your own feelings, they are only your feelings.

My grandfather died of a horrible battle with cancer. Does that mean I hate every person who makes cancer jokes? No.

Would you vote for a Prime Minister that mocked a specific person's cancer? It's a bit different than making 'jokes'.

Also now, Trump has started trying to be our Prime Minister as well. He should get his beak out of British affairs.

He said he's 'offended' by wind farms. I thought it was only the alleged 'SJW's' that get offended. Apparently not. 

[eFestivals]

35 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

Oh and the normal ground of us poltiics is NOT nazi salutes at presidential candidate rallys!

That was normal at Trump's rallies? Really?

Or do you mean it happened at a rally of likeminded neo-nazis who were supporting Trump - just as they normally support a candidate, normally the republican, but you can even find some genuine 'neonazi's for barack' stuff out there if you look.

 

35 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

nor is it representatives of white nationalism fanzines like breitbart being given positions of power at the white house!

Bannon ceased to be an employee of breitbart when he became an employee of Trump. he's had a long career with many employers (including himself).

Not sure what your point was here. You didn't know, or you went for the lie? Dunno.

 

35 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

Yes there have always been the extreme republican assholes out there but they've never been so close to power and never had so much influence....THAT is what people fear. Put it this way...... I never saw a rally for bush where people were chanting `heil bush` `heil bush` as SOME have been for trump.

Out of interest, how many times did you go searching for stuff like that around bush, as you did for Trump?
(include self-confirming-prejudice factional media groups within the 'search')

It doesn't jump in front of your eyes by magic, after all.

 

35 minutes ago, waterfalls212434 said:

Its not all but its certainly more widespread then its ever been, such extreme movements seem to be growing and `their` candidate in the white house only encourages them and enables that to carry on.

Given that fact you cannot blame people for fearing for the future!

Crime exists. Given that fact you cannot blame people for changing their lives due to them having a false fear of crime. Or you can, or at least, you can blame someone for those levels of fear. In the case of crime in the UK, you can very definitely blame the tabloids. It's a proven fact.

And i've happened to have noticed a bunch of self-annoited evangelists going around spreading fear about Trump on the basis of lies - even on these forums.

So rather than have people live in false fear I've posted back to make the point of those lies being lies.

And now you seem upset that I'm trying to help people over their false fears of the future. Ho-hum.

[scrippit]

8 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

You wrote this three pages ago that Trump hates all mexicans, all blacks, all hispanics, all gays, all women!?!!?

You have not read the post correctly, please read it again. It reads the opposite. I have not at any time said that!  

[scrippit]

14 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

My grandfather died of a horrible battle with cancer. Does that mean I hate every person who makes cancer jokes? No.

But if one of them was running for president?

[Cornelius_Fudge]

9 minutes ago, Alex DeLarge said:

Would you vote for a Prime Minister that mocked a specific person's cancer? It's a bit different than making 'jokes'.

Also now, Trump has started trying to be our Prime Minister as well. He should get his beak out of British affairs.

He said he's 'offended' by wind farms. I thought it was only the alleged 'SJW's' that get offended. Apparently not. 

I understand it's bad taste to do it, but you only get offended if you choose to. I wouldn't make the same joke, but that doesn't mean we should start lambasting and destroying everyone who makes a joke that is offensive - what would happen to comedy for a start? 80% of the comics alive wouldn't have a job anymore.

I wouldn't give two shits if he made a joke about cancer because for me they wouldn't be related.

And how in the world can anyone be offended by wind farms? Where's the offense? Honestly the guy's an idiot sometimes

I just think for a lot of people who want money, jobs, less taxes, less competition from illegal immigrants - these people do not and didn't care about one poor joke

Edited November 22, 2016 by Cornelius_Fudge

[Cornelius_Fudge]

5 minutes ago, scrippit said:

You have not read the post correctly, please read it again. It reads the opposite. I have not at any time said that!  

Read which one correctly? The one where you stated that he thinks all mexicans and blacks are shit, or the one where you say you claim you didn't say that?

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, zahidf said:

 

Fuck me, a 35 year old can of worms - because there's fuck all else to attack him with from what he's done in the 35 years since.

He may or may not have had those people wrongly prosecuted. It all depends on whether that original unproven allegation was really true or not.

It's not something that cannot be resolved, and despite a clean record since, you're determined that he's damned forever on the basis of a 35 year old unproven allegation. 

Care to tell me how that's showing yourself as liberal or progressive, and therefore a better person than the man you condemn?

 

[Alex DeLarge]

2 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

I understand it's bad taste to do it, but you only get offended if you choose to. I wouldn't make the same joke, but that doesn't mean we should start lambasting and destroying everyone who makes a joke that is offensive - what would happen to comedy for a start? 80% of the comics alive wouldn't have a job anymore.

I wouldn't give two shits if he made a joke about cancer because for me they wouldn't be related.

What joke was he making? I never suggested we should be the comedy police, just that the President of the USA shouldn't be bullying someone by imitating their disability. 

[scrippit]

8 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

Read which one correctly? The one where you stated that he thinks all mexicans and blacks are shit, or the one where you say you claim you didn't say that?

The first one. Where did I state that?

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, scrippit said:

The first one. Where did I state that?

 

4 hours ago, scrippit said:

Trump is the king of monolithic statements; all blacks, all muslims, all mexicans, all hispanics, all swamp dwellers, all liberals. Let's not be confused about where he stands and why he will not out his extermeist support.

[Cornelius_Fudge]

4 minutes ago, Alex DeLarge said:

What joke was he making? I never suggested we should be the comedy police, just that the President of the USA shouldn't be bullying someone by imitating their disability. 

Rory Bremner does it every week and people call him hilarious

[Alex DeLarge]

1 minute ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

Rory Bremner does it every week and people call him hilarious

Didn't realise Rory Bremner was a political leader. 

[Cornelius_Fudge]

I see some people can down vote instead of coming up with a coherent argument...

[Cornelius_Fudge]

1 minute ago, Alex DeLarge said:

Didn't realise Rory Bremner was a political leader. 

As soon as you realise politicians are just like the rest of us, the better