This morning...

[Alex DeLarge]

8 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

Wow, that meme sure destroyed every anti-Trump argument there.

Except for the fact he's said 

“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.”

Also the fact he wants to increase stop and frisk searches, something which would disproportionately affect African-Americans, his starting of the Birther controversy about Obama, that  he doesn't support State investigations into local police accused of racism, his refusal to disavow the KKK, implied the only reason Ghazala Khan didn't speak was because she was a Muslim and not allowed to, claiming a Judge was biased against him because the Judge was Mexican, the quotes from various people who have worked with him on the apprentice describing him as a racist, his refusal to condemn (and actual encouragement of) his supporters assaulting black and Latino protesters, him sharing false or misleading statistics about black crime and the fact the Justice Department sued him twice for not renting to black people.

[___S_o_m_a__]

50 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

I'd be like this. "Listen Samuel L. Jackson, great actor from cinematic adventures such as Hard Eight, Deep Blue Sea and Snakes on a Plane, I specifically asked for the blue pill so why are you up in my motherfuckin' grill with your naaaaaawnsense?"

Probably just me though. 

[eFestivals]

 

12 hours ago, zahidf said:

'Some of my best friends are black, i cant be a racist'

 

and some of your claims are crap, you can't be telling the truth.

12 hours ago, Alex DeLarge said:

I know I said I wouldn't get involved again in this thread, but the concern over Trump's treatment of American Muslims is well founded.

No one here is suggesting that Trump should be given free reign ... but i'll just point out that it's hugely likely that the surveillance of UK mosques has probably more than doubled,  and no one made a announcement about it. Does the transparency of Trump make Trump better or worse than the UK? I dunno.

Taking actions towards potential crime isn't exactly the most heinous thing in the world. Yep, some people end up unfairly targeted by it (something I've suffered from myself in the past), but it's a bit of a chicken and egg thing rather than a distinct and clear "we hate that group".

Funnily enough there's a story on the Guardian right now about how black people are unfairly targeted in the UK:-
Ethnic minorities more likely to be jailed for some crimes, report finds
... which is no surprise to me at all, because my ex personally did the exact same research for the Home Office over 2 decades ago and arrived at the same conclusions, but the UK did fuck all towards trying to correct the inherent racism of our criminal justice system, so 20 years later it's all the same.

It's bad, action needs to be taken, but what it isn't is a new Nazism.

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, zahidf said:

cthulhu: upon waking from my eternal slumber I will devour the souls of all humanity

Some people on here: hmm ok but let's see what he actually does

You've claimed one of his sidekicks is "a literal nazi", but you can't even back up your claims of him having been derogatory to jews.

So let's see what zahidf actually does.

Lie again? Very probably.

Why do you think your own lies are different or better than Trump's lies. zahidf?

How do you think your lies help improve the deteriorating situation?

 

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, zahidf said:

 

Racists don't approve of equality of racial groups....? Who fucking knew?

I'm not laughing at the racism, I'm laughing at you, zahidf.

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, Alex DeLarge said:

“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.”

No one here is giving stuff like this their approval.

Just as I'm not giving the edit you've made to Trump's words my approval. A lie is a lie is a lie, whether it's Trump's or yours.

Because you've removed the "not you" part, that makes clear Trump is demonising Mexicans that are not Americans. What part of Trump's focus on just-America are you having intellectual problems with?

Around a third of Mexican within the USA voted for Trump. Do you think they did that because they're racist against themselves, or because they're understanding something different from Trump's words - words you deliberately chose to misrepresent? 

It's not just Trump who's post-truth.

 

[zahidf]

 

 

[Respectfatfrog]

5 minutes ago, zahidf said:

 

 

is there any proof of this being true or more of someone making headlines? I've noticed how much people are ready to believe any statement like this without seeing any proof that its real. 

I'm not a fan of either but respect the fact that his honest that he wants to put America first. 

[Cornelius_Fudge]

13 hours ago, Alex DeLarge said:

I know I said I wouldn't get involved again in this thread, but the concern over Trump's treatment of American Muslims is well founded.

I also told myself I wouldn't either but I guess old habits die hard

 

9 hours ago, Alex DeLarge said:

Wow, that meme sure destroyed every anti-Trump argument there.

Except for the fact he's said 

“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.”

Also the fact he wants to increase stop and frisk searches, something which would disproportionately affect African-Americans, his starting of the Birther controversy about Obama, that  he doesn't support State investigations into local police accused of racism, his refusal to disavow the KKK, implied the only reason Ghazala Khan didn't speak was because she was a Muslim and not allowed to, claiming a Judge was biased against him because the Judge was Mexican, the quotes from various people who have worked with him on the apprentice describing him as a racist, his refusal to condemn (and actual encouragement of) his supporters assaulting black and Latino protesters, him sharing false or misleading statistics about black crime and the fact the Justice Department sued him twice for not renting to black people.

As I see it he doesn't say anything racist in this quote. It's a quote that was jumped on by the media and distorted until there was only the sentence "Mexicans are rapists" left, which is what everyone remembers.

Mexico remember, like the USA, is not a race of people. To be a racist you have to distinguish that one race is better than another and he's never said white people are better than latinos.

He merely made a statement that some of them bring drugs - which they do, and some of them rape - which they have. He also acknowledged that some of the are good people, despite them being illegal immigrants, so to only focus on something he didn't say at all just seems wrong to me and whips up his support a lot because they resent so quickly being labelled racists.

Stop and frisk might disproportionately stop blacks but they do have more contact with crime to prove there is reason for this. Black on black crime in the USA Is far higher than police brutality against blacks. I read a statistic that it would take 40 years for police killing black people, that black people kill black people in one year.

This isn't racist either, because he's never said "Black people only cause crime and we are better than them and we should stop and check people only because of black people".

Refusing to condemn the KKK guy wouldn't have changed anything and it's the same as the "I've got black friends so I can't be racist" excuse but in reverse. Just because he doesn't condemn them doesn't mean he is racist.

The Mexican judge situation doesn't show superiority of one race over another either. He questions the impartiality of the judge, but that's fair isn't it? We judge police officers, jury members, lawyers, and almost everyone on their bias. It's questionable but not racist.

He didn't rent to predominantly more black people because they failed credit checks for the apartments, not because of their colour. There's no evidence that this was the case - but unfortunately statistically speaking, blacks are more likely to have a bank loan turned down because they have poorer paying jobs and represent a higher risk. It's not racist, it's checking the books and being a good businessman.

[eFestivals]

12 minutes ago, zahidf said:

 

 

They say they're "mulling it over".

If a register of Muslims helped address and lessen 'Islamic' terrorism, would that be a good or a bad thing? 

And from the other side, if it doesn't help address the problem of terrorism, why would they do it?

I ask, because they're mulling it over. These are the sorts of things they'll be considering.

I don't have any problem with any politician considering issues that concern the public - and terrorism concerns the public (does anyone think it shouldn't?) - and how they might be best addressed.

I'm very likely to have a problem if they decided a register would help address terrorism, because I can't see how it could - yet at the same time, I'd be prepared to hear and consider their logic that led them to that conclusion, rather than dismiss it out of hand.

I'd rather not pre-decide that i know best about everything and dismiss and prejudge - you know, like prejudice - other humans as worthless. That would make me just like Trump.

[zahidf]

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

They say they're "mulling it over".

If a register of Muslims helped address and lessen 'Islamic' terrorism, would that be a good or a bad thing? 

And from the other side, if it doesn't help address the problem of terrorism, why would they do it?

I ask, because they're mulling it over. These are the sorts of things they'll be considering.

I don't have any problem with any politician considering issues that concern the public - and terrorism concerns the public (does anyone think it shouldn't?) - and how they might be best addressed.

I'm very likely to have a problem if they decided a register would help address terrorism, because I can't see how it could - yet at the same time, I'd be prepared to hear and consider their logic that led them to that conclusion, rather than dismiss it out of hand.

I'd rather not pre-decide that i know best about everything and dismiss and prejudge - you know, like prejudice - other humans as worthless. That would make me just like Trump.

You know that 30's Germany started off with a register of foreign jews, which quickly moved to domestic ones. 

 

Any sort of register based in religion is a terrible idea

[clarkete]

11 hours ago, Ommadawn said:

Like people voting against you?

Well in my case I was helping folks who were representing a party, either at a by election or local level.

So of course there are issues that will affect the votes received, outside of how good a candidate (or existing representative) that person may be.  Obviously if you're fortunate that works the other way too.

[eFestivals]

Hmmmm .... and reading thru that article, the scheme they're considering is a re-reinstatement - not something new - of something George W Bush put in place after 9/11.

Now, i'm sure there was plenty of criticism of that scheme at the time, yet I don't remember a massive fuss about that issue where every conclusion was that Bush was a "literal" Nazi, and that it defined the coming of death camps and the like, or even that it was anything like apartheid.

I'd much rather politicians were smarter than doing this sort of stuff, but (given the context) this sort of stuff is pretty much the norm for any national leader. No country wants to let in the 'baddies'.

[zahidf]

https://twitter.com/sarahkendzior/status/798713690254143488

[Cornelius_Fudge]

5 minutes ago, zahidf said:

You know that 30's Germany started off with a register of foreign jews, which quickly moved to domestic ones. 

 

Any sort of register based in religion is a terrible idea

Can you please stop equating everything to the Jewish crisis in the 1930s.

Trump hasn't written a book called 'My Fight' blaming Muslims for the destruction of the USA and calling for their genocide.

[Alex DeLarge]

48 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

No one here is giving stuff like this their approval.

Just as I'm not giving the edit you've made to Trump's words my approval. A lie is a lie is a lie, whether it's Trump's or yours.

Because you've removed the "not you" part, that makes clear Trump is demonising Mexicans that are not Americans. What part of Trump's focus on just-America are you having intellectual problems with?

Around a third of Mexican within the USA voted for Trump. Do you think they did that because they're racist against themselves, or because they're understanding something different from Trump's words - words you deliberately chose to misrepresent? 

It's not just Trump who's post-truth.

 

Where did I lie? I copied and pasted his quote directly. Just because many Mexicans voted for Trump, it doesn't absolve his racism, just as many KKK members endorsing Trump may not necessarily mean he is racist. 

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, zahidf said:

You know that 30's Germany started off with a register of foreign jews, which quickly moved to domestic ones. 

the register that Trump is supposedly considering is a REINSTATEMENT of a register that Dubya put in place - which didn't degenerate how you're claiming it will.

 

2 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Any sort of register based in religion is a terrible idea

As a generality, I don't disagree.

But then again, if you had a religion where all adherents were solely dedicated to killing Americans, a register would be a great idea.

The issue around Muslims and terrorism is somewhere between none of them and everyone. There's a point in that range where a register would have a beneficial effect.

I can't see how a register can have a beneficial effect, but as i'm not working by prejudice I'll not be prejudging anything about the consideration currently being made, as that would make me Trump.

Now, just suppose that the Trump conclusion is that a register isn't considered beneficial.and so it doesn't happen. Will you credit him as not the anti-Muslim you've been claiming?

[clarkete]

33 minutes ago, Cornelius_Fudge said:

Stop and frisk might disproportionately stop blacks but they do have more contact with crime to prove there is reason for this. Black on black crime in the USA Is far higher than police brutality against blacks. I read a statistic that it would take 40 years for police killing black people, that black people kill black people in one year.

This isn't racist either, because he's never said "Black people only cause crime and we are better than them and we should stop and check people only because of black people".
 

He didn't rent to predominantly more black people because they failed credit checks for the apartments, not because of their colour. There's no evidence that this was the case - but unfortunately statistically speaking, blacks are more likely to have a bank loan turned down because they have poorer paying jobs and represent a higher risk. It's not racist, it's checking the books and being a good businessman.

22 minutes.  He has chosen to spread lies which are used by racists, I've seen them quoted a lot online.  You're making up your own lies too.

 

 

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, Alex DeLarge said:

Where did I lie? I copied and pasted his quote directly. 

But not all of it.

You missed out the bit where he makes clear he's not talking about Mexicans within the USA.

I'm not trying to pretend that makes what Trump said good, but it does make it different to what the words you chose to quote say.

 

[Alex DeLarge]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

But not all of it.

You missed out the bit where he makes clear he's not talking about Mexicans within the USA.

I'm not trying to pretend that makes what Trump said good, but it does make it different to what the words you chose to quote say.

 

I genuinely apologise then, that's the quote that came with the article.

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, clarkete said:

22 minutes.  He has chosen to spread lies which are used by racists, I've seen them quoted a lot online.  You're making up your own lies too.

Yep, I don't disagree.

BUT ... there's still a VERY big difference between the Nazism some are talking about, and the sorts of discrimination that existed in the USA 50 or so years back, which would be the furthest anything within the USA is likely to go to.

(not that I think there's any chance of even that).

I'm not disagreeing that Trump made a big racist play, I'm disputing what it means in its effects.

 

 

Quote

 

 

Republican, Republican, Republican, Republican, Republican?

Yep, that's something different to the normal Republicans.

 

Edited November 16, 2016 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

10 minutes ago, Alex DeLarge said:

I genuinely apologise then, that's the quote that came with the article.

The full quote is below.

edit: my apologies, you did include that part - but it passed you by in what it's saying, clearly.

I'm not trying to pretend it's anything but racist, but the distinction he made between Mexicans already here and the 'bad' ones that might come that he's clearly referring to is there.

 

 

Quote

“When Mexico (meaning the Mexican Government) sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you (pointing to the audience). They’re not sending you (pointing again). They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems to us. They’re bringing drugs.They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people! But I speak to border guards and they tell us what we’re getting. And it only makes common sense. They’re sending us not the right people. It’s coming from more than Mexico. It’s coming from all over South and Latin America, and it’s coming probably from the Middle East. But we don’t know. Because we have no protection and we have no competence, we don’t know what’s happening. And it’s got to stop and it’s got to stop fast.”

Edited November 16, 2016 by eFestivals

[zahidf]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

You've claimed one of his sidekicks is "a literal nazi", but you can't even back up your claims of him having been derogatory to jews.

So let's see what zahidf actually does.

Lie again? Very probably.

Why do you think your own lies are different or better than Trump's lies. zahidf?

How do you think your lies help improve the deteriorating situation?

 

 

[Cornelius_Fudge]

1 hour ago, clarkete said:

22 minutes.  He has chosen to spread lies which are used by racists, I've seen them quoted a lot online.  You're making up your own lies too.

 

 

What lies have I said?

[eFestivals]

17 minutes ago, zahidf said:

 

Clinton does meet with bankers. 

Whether that's to "plot the downfall of the USA" or not is a matter of perspective on what the effects of those meetings cause.

That's Clinton, the "anti-racist" and "anti-misogynist" who had 25% of her campaign funds come from Saudi Arabia and Qatar, while also collecting a tidy sum from those bankers - who also happen to be Jewish.

It doesn't excuse anything of the focus on the religions of those people of course, but for someone like Trump who wants to stir the pot around the 'nasty bankers' narrative that 'the left' have loved to drop while also rounding up support from anywhere he can get it, what's he going to do? 

Just think how a candidate who wasn't in hock to the bankers or some of the most despicable regimes on the planet might have wiped the floor with Trump. 

People had to make a choice from two VERY flawed candidates.

They picked the wrong one as far as I'm concerned, but it's only fascists who say people are not free to make their choice.