Not enough female performers? Or silly agenda-pushing nonsense?

[Bradders]

 

 

So you're saying we should promote slightly smaller bands up the lineup to create a more equal balance?

 

Good point.

[Tigerdragon]

I do believe women are generally not as interested in music as men.

This is not a slight against women, just a personal observation.

In that case, could you give me some things you think women are interested in? 

[maelzoid]

I take exception that metal and heavy music is macho and chauvinistic. I’ve been involved in metal and hardcore scenes for the best part of 15 years, and on the whole I find it a lot more accepting and “lefty” than other scenes. Its one of the few genres where if you have a woman in the band, no one within the scene even bats an eyelid. If an indie band has a female member it’s the main focus.

 

While I totally agree with the sentiment here, I refrained from posting a similar response after quickly viewing the line-up to this year's Download.  I went on the Saturday and although saw bands all day long, I'm sure I didn't see a single woman on stage.

[Chazwozza]

This is SUCH a good graphic:

 

It really does deserve a wider audience than even this thread/forum can provide.

[The_Amazing_Oblong]

Yes, if women want to be home-makers, that is fine. But do you genuinely think they list all the things they'd like to with their lives and, en masse, pick that as their ideal future? And if you do, why do you think that is? Estrogen?

People don't want to force women to do anything. Feminism isn't there to speak for them. Sometimes, people try to under the flag of feminism, and they are bullshit merchants. Its just about having the choices. After all, in the huge scratch-card that is life, wouldn't it be nice if more diverse people got winning tickets, not just men. Who are white. From money. From Eton or Harrow. Who have a degree in PPE. From Oxford and Cambridge. 

 

I absolutely agree that the only thing preventing someone from entering the music industry should be lack of hard work and talent. I personally suspect that is already the case though. Talent and hard work always rises to the top, you can't really keep it down and especially in this age where you can be on youtube 10 minutes after recording a vid.

[Tigerdragon]

Not really. I pointed out just a couple posts above yours that quite a lot of women decide to become homemakers when they have children and take part time jobs which means not as many are entering ALL professions and thus there will NEVER be equal representation in music.

 

If you don't believe that then you must believe women don't make good homemakers.

 

See how this works ?

 

Who wants blind equality anyway.

 

 

 

This thing about children is such putrid bullshit. The compulsory commitment to a child for the mother over the father is a maximum of 9 months longer. Almost definitely less. Why does that make a life of home making compulsory? Why aren't men homemakers? If you think its down to skill, do you think women are just designed to keep the home better than men are?

How are you justifying this in your mind. I'm as simultaneously intrigued and mystified by your logic as I am when watching someone solving a rubix cube. 

[Bradders]

Talent and hard work always rises to the top

 

Is that why most the people in power came from families who could afford to send their kids to private schools?

[The_Amazing_Oblong]

The other side of this is if a booking agent has two identical acts, except one is female and one is male, he will almost certainly chose the latter, as going with what you know is easy.

Without diversity of humans in music, it becomes generic, and suffers. Essentially, you're being very short-sighted.

 

How would you know this ? That is simply a presumption. A silly one at that, the chances of having two identical acts must be astronomical. 

[Starchild771]

 

Maybe it is needed...? What's wrong with equality?


Maybe it shouldn't be hard for anyone?

Is pushing for equality without considering all the implications always appropriate? A blunt example -  the high jump is biased against short-people - would it be appropriate to engineer equality for the short people to take part? The topic being discussed is far more complex, but for me it doesn't come down a simple sexism issue. I suspect that musical preference of the buyers plays a huge part too - I simply enjoy listening to male artists far more than I do women, I wonder what the ratio is for the population?

 

As for being hard? I don't think it is any harder for women than for men - I think it's very hard for everyone in the industry full stop.

 

 

 

I do believe women are generally not as interested in music as men.

This is not a slight against women, just a personal observation.

 

I agree with this too (though its a big generalisation).

[The_Amazing_Oblong]

/Bradders - We are talking about the music industry.

 

/Tigerdragon - I specifically highlighted *Choice for the hard of reading/understanding.

[chewsavedlatin]

In that case, could you give me some things you think women are interested in? 

 

No, because you can't generalise what 50% of the population are interested in. So I'm not going to say women have no interest in A they are interested in B.

 

My point was from my demographic of friends the number of music nerds I know there are alot more men than women. The biggest music nerd I know is a women and has a very well respected job within the industry, but that doesn't change that generally speaking the people with a heightened interest tend to be men in my experience.

[jonodillieono]

The other side of this is if a booking agent has two identical acts, except one is female and one is male, he will almost certainly chose the latter, as going with what you know is easy.

Without diversity of humans in music, it becomes generic, and suffers. Essentially, you're being very short-sighted.

You're right there and I believe that has to change, it should be a randomly chosen act out the 2.

I believe music can be diverse without legging up shit acts just because some of the members of said band are of a certain gender

[Bradders]

the chances of having two identical acts must be astronomical. 

 

You don't even understand hypothetical situations?

 

Starchild771 is quite openly sexist.

 

I give up, I'm off to pack my stuff!

[Tigerdragon]

I absolutely agree that the only thing preventing someone from entering the music industry should be lack of hard work and talent. I personally suspect that is already the case though. Talent and hard work always rises to the top, you can't really keep it down and especially in this age where you can be on youtube 10 minutes after recording a vid.

So you're saying this

1) Talent and hard work rise to the top

2) Men rise to the top more frequently.

3) Men are harder workers and more talented than women.

I dont think you truly believe that, but it is what you're saying.

[Tigerdragon]

 

No, because you can't generalise what 50% of the population are interested in. So I'm not going to say women have no interest in A they are interested in B.

 

 

My point was from my demographic of friends the number of music nerds I know there are alot more men than women. The biggest music nerd I know is a women and has a very well respected job within the industry, but that doesn't change that generally speaking the people with a heightened interest tend to be men in my experience.

 

You've already generalised. That was my point. 

[The_Amazing_Oblong]

It is a difficult topic. Perhaps it should be pondered long into the night at Glastonbury with a total stranger after eleventy pints.

[Tigerdragon]

It is a difficult topic. Perhaps it should be pondered long into the night at Glastonbury with a total stranger after eleventy pints.

We can agree on that .

[chewsavedlatin]

While I totally agree with the sentiment here, I refrained from posting a similar response after quickly viewing the line-up to this year's Download.  I went on the Saturday and although saw bands all day long, I'm sure I didn't see a single woman on stage.

 

i get your point, but while download isn't the best representation of the music it is meant to promote. It did have women playing and a openly gay male in quite a prominent place. I'll bet good money no-one batted an eyelid at either.

Edited June 23, 2015 by chewsavedlatin

[The_Amazing_Oblong]

I think just as many women I know are into music but it does tend to be more pop oriented music. Which is where we find women more dominant in the industry which is interesting in itself.

[chewsavedlatin]

You've already generalised. That was my point. 

 

I think you've misunderstood my point.

its not saying women aren't interested in music, its saying as a proportion of people interested in music it is mostly men.

[Starchild771]

You don't even understand hypothetical situations?

 

Starchild771 is quite openly sexist.

 

I give up, I'm off to pack my stuff!

Ok maybe I shouldn't have got involved with this discussion without having time to express myself clearly but I think you have misunderstood me somewhere. Have a good Glastonbury 

[Tigerdragon]

I think you've misunderstood my point.

its not saying women aren't interested in music, its saying as a proportion of people interested in music it is mostly men.

Okay, thats fine. It just sounds like your saying interest is behind success in something like music. So I'm wondering what you, or anyone, think women are more interested in than men - if men are more interested in music as you say -and do they tend to be at the top of that industry? 

[Amii]

I'd say things like this are the heart of the issue.

If women don't feel empowered to do music just think of all the other things they're being short changed on.

Only when women feel able to enter all professions as equally as men are things really getting somewhere.

I can see your point, but I personally have never seen a problem with female representation in music. I've worked in the industry myself in a marketing capacity, albeit not for a few years, and it's never struck me as an issue.

Yes, we should challenge industries where women are not being given any chance - construction, energy and senior management for instance - but music isn't that badly affected in my opinion. Not everything can be a 50-50 split between men and women, and I've always felt that putting issues like this at the fore does not help equality - it unfortunately positions feminists as pedantic and annoying.

Not saying that's the right perception at all. Of course in an ideal world we'd have that 50-50 split, but it's a case of picking your fights.

[Starchild771]

I can see your point, but I personally have never seen a problem with female representation in music. I've worked in the industry myself in a marketing capacity, albeit not for a few years, and it's never struck me as an issue.

Yes, we should challenge industries where women are not being given any chance - construction, energy and senior management for instance - but music isn't that badly affected in my opinion. Not everything can be a 50-50 split between men and women, and I've always felt that putting issues like this at the fore does not help equality - it unfortunately positions feminists as pedantic and annoying.

Not saying that's the right perception at all. Of course in an ideal world we'd have that 50-50 split, but it's a case of picking your fights.

 

This is basically exactly what I was trying to say.

[Tigerdragon]

I can see your point, but I personally have never seen a problem with female representation in music. I've worked in the industry myself in a marketing capacity, albeit not for a few years, and it's never struck me as an issue.

Yes, we should challenge industries where women are not being given any chance - construction, energy and senior management for instance - but music isn't that badly affected in my opinion. Not everything can be a 50-50 split between men and women, and I've always felt that putting issues like this at the fore does not help equality - it unfortunately positions feminists as pedantic and annoying.

Not saying that's the right perception at all. Of course in an ideal world we'd have that 50-50 split, but it's a case of picking your fights.

 representation isn't 50-50, your personal experience aside. World wide festival line-ups are evidence enough of that. 

And surely the biggest battle feminism should engage in is giving women more chance of succeeding in what they dream of doing, and its stuff like twitter reactions to a scientist's shirt (you know, the android on a asteroid guy) that makes them come across as pedantic and annoying?

Edited June 23, 2015 by Tigerdragon