What women (don't) want.

[eFestivals]

If patriarchy is true, then men hold all the power.

how do you suggest negotiations to continue, then?

you're not getting how they come to have that power, which would be explained to you by better knowledge of patriarchy.

For all the while you treat it as a concious holding of power you'll be getting it wrong.

[krisskross]

What I keep pointing out is that both are possible. In fact, both happen all the time every day.

Men and women *do* act differently; we can see that, so we might as well accept that reality.

But there's plenty within that which is clearly discriminatory and can be acted against and changed, and does get acted against and changed.

That process is the best we can manage to do (tho we can better tackle some issues than we do within that process).

Via that process the differences get lessened, which allows us to re-evaluate things from a different place where we'll get an ever-clearer view of what the actual issues are and how they're best tackled.

It looks like there is something we all agree on!

[eFestivals]

Most are..no? Power == Success.

we all want to be thought of as successful, both men and women.

The answer to this is within how men get to hold the power that they do - which I'm not going to attempt to explain because I know I'll do a poor job.

A full reading of patriarchy covers this.

[feral chile]

you're not getting how they come to have that power, which would be explained to you by better knowledge of patriarchy.

For all the while you treat it as a concious holding of power you'll be getting it wrong.

I do understand gender bias, if that's what you mean, that's why I'm not keen on the theory of patriarchy overtly referencing it.

(that's not to say I'm not often unaware of my own gender bias, but not as much as you think I am).

[eFestivals]

provoking a defensive response is always unconstructive, if you're trying to negotiate.

wrong.

We can all think of times others have put us on the defensive, but where that attack has caused us to re-evaluate and change our views - and this proves you wrong, categorically.

(unless you've never had your mind changed...? )

It is the *only* constructive form of change. No real change has happened if we don't understand what has happened.

A "teacher knows best" approach is ultimately a lesson in failure.

I just want to foster a spirit of co-operation.

which you get *only* by winning someone over to your side with a rational argument.

Getting them to the same place via their own ignorance is not getting cooperation, it's something where you've led them like a sheep.

I don't think anyone's unaware of feminism by now, either, so raising awareness in the UK isn't an issue, though it might well be an issue for other disadvantaged groups.

As this convo shows, there's gross ignorance of patriarchy, the central issue that feminism needs to tackle.

[feral chile]

we all want to be thought of as successful, both men and women.

The answer to this is within how men get to hold the power that they do - which I'm not going to attempt to explain because I know I'll do a poor job.

A full reading of patriarchy covers this.

yes, and at the moment that success is subject to gender bias, because it's looking at corporate success.

it's not looking at success in raising warm, kind, human beings, but based around competition and elitism.

That's part of what I get twitchy about - 'power' is being defined according to male bias to start with, and so, therefore, is 'patriarchy'.

it's not that I don't think that gender bias doesn't exist, it's more that I think the theory of patriarchy is also gender biased, because of how it looks at the balance of power in male dominated terms to start with. As in, power itself, for one thing.

To me, patriarchy isn't just describing society, it's also subsumed by its own description. Everything, including the theory, is male dominated, because of the focus of it.

How can a discussion of power not be a male dominated discussion in the first place? (I don't mean that the feminists are male, I hope you realise )

Edited February 20, 2015 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

I do understand gender bias, if that's what you mean

Nope, I mean a full and detailed examination of the issue of patriarchy, that either you've never read or which you've discounted for spurious reasons.

As I've asked many times, if you wish to reject the idea of patriarchy, you'll need to be telling us all what is not male-defined.

[feral chile]

Nope, I mean a full and detailed examination of the issue of patriarchy, that either you've never read or which you've discounted for spurious reasons.

As I've asked many times, if you wish to reject the idea of patriarchy, you'll need to be telling us all what is not male-defined.

I don't want a society that defines success as a balance of power. I want a caring society.

power = dominance = male value structure.

If female value structure = power = dominance, I don't want it.

Edited February 20, 2015 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

yes, and at the moment that success is subject to gender bias, because it's looking at corporate success.

I didn't define 'success' as just that, and neither did what I posted in response to.

We all have different measures for what our personal successes are.

'power' is being defined according to male bias to start with, and so, therefore, is 'patriarchy'.

wrong again, literally.

I think the theory of patriarchy is also gender biased

so tell me what isn't male defined.

To me, patriarchy isn't just describing society, it's also subsumed by its own description.

that might be correct, but what cannot be disputed is the fact of patriarchy unless you can tell me what isn't male-defined.

How can a discussion of power not be a male dominated discussion in the first place?

have you never heard of something called "an academic discussion"?

Either it's possible to attempt it, or you logically have no point and should disappear in your own puff of illogical smoke.

[eFestivals]

I don't want a society that defines success as a balance of power. I want a caring society.

power = dominance = male value structure.

If female value structure = power = dominance, I don't want it.

PMSL - so despite me constantly asking the question, you still can't answer it.

You do realise what that means, don't you?

[krisskross]

I don't want a society that defines success as a balance of power. I want a caring society.

power = dominance = male value structure.

If female value structure = power = dominance, I don't want it.

This makes me think of Gorillas.. Power structure in the male side of the pack with the alpha male leading defence / exerting control over land and against other packs. The women gather, and nurture children. Its impossible just to change one aspect without introducing the other?

[krisskross]

have you never heard of something called "an academic discussion"?

Which is inherently patriarchal...

[eFestivals]

Which is inherently patriarchal...

I did say "attempt", if you care to notice.

The same issues around it all apply in both directions. There's no mileage in dismissing the idea of 'academic discussions' as that only gets to mean all discussions are purposeless in trying to address issues.

[feral chile]

This makes me think of Gorillas.. Power structure in the male side of the pack with the alpha male leading defence / exerting control over land and against other packs. The women gather, and nurture children. Its impossible just to change one aspect without introducing the other?

That's how patriarchy makes me feel, and why I don't like it. it's not about whether men hold all the power, it's whether power should be the end goal.

I'm really not good at explaining what I mean, and yes, it is difficult not to think in male defined terms, but to me, patriarchy IS talking in ale defined terms, by looking at society through male defined eyes, if you like. (Not that it's not correct in looking at the gender bias of power, but that everything is defined through that).

It's not that patriarchy says men hold all the power that I'm objecting to, it's more the way poer is both defined, and aspired towards, as I think that's a masculine bias to start with.

Edited February 20, 2015 by feral chile

[feral chile]

I did say "attempt", if you care to notice.

The same issues around it all apply in both directions. There's no mileage in dismissing the idea of 'academic discussions' as that only gets to mean all discussions are purposeless in trying to address issues.

YES!!!!!

but every time I talk about something without explicitly bringing in the patriarchal aspect of it, you think I don't know about patriarchy!

THIS ^^^^^^^

is the crux of our disagreement.

Edited February 20, 2015 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

but every time I talk about something without explicitly bringing in the patriarchal aspect of it, you think I don't know about patriarchy!

... or I think you're dismissing patriarchy, because it's patriarchy-free.

So back it up: tell me what's free of male-definition.

Until you can do that, you have no logical reason for your dismissal.

[feral chile]

... or I think you're dismissing patriarchy, because it's patriarchy-free.

So back it up: tell me what's free of male-definition.

Until you can do that, you have no logical reason for your dismissal.

what's free of female-definition?

[eFestivals]

PS: and what you say isn't what you do anyway, as can be seen in the sexist attacks you've made on me.

Edited February 20, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

what's free of female-definition?

Everything. Let's pick an easy one: childbirth.

Which gender has decided the 'rules' for that? Men or women?

[feral chile]

PS: and what you say isn't what you do anyway, as can be seen on the sexist attacks you've made4 on me.

I'm sure I'm just as capable of being sexist as everyone else.

[feral chile]

Everything. Let's pick an easy one: childbirth.

Which gender has decided the 'rules' for that? Men or women?

what do you mean?

[eFestivals]

what do you mean?

I thought you got this...?

[feral chile]

I thought you got this...?

err...maybe not

[eFestivals]

Childbirth is about the most-female thing in existence (by its very nature), and yet it's men who have decided the rules for how it should happen.

It only gets worse from there.

[feral chile]

Childbirth is about the most-female thing in existence (by its very nature), and yet it's men who have decided the rules for how it should happen.

It only gets worse from there.

do you mean medically?