Bowie for Glastonbury.

[eFestivals]

The voting system has to change to reflect peoples views - but it seems not enough people want that. At least, not many are pushing for it.

not particularly true in either case. Everyone knows the country would choose PR, which is precisely why Dave Moron didn't let us vote to choose PR.

The Scots consistently vote Labour/SNP yet are ruled by tories.

what you mean is "recently" and not "consistently".

I might be tired but this looks like an opportunity to show that things can be done differently.

the polls say very differently. People will be voting with the perception of how fat their personal wallet might be afterwards, rather than what the result on Scotland itself might be, or whether the principle of independence is the right principle.

The motivations become clear in this poll:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-25833692

Personally I don't much care what Scotland might choose for itself, but I hate to see people make a different decision than they might otherwise as the result of lies so I wish the Scots would hold Salmond and his "only jam and lots of it" fantasy scenario to account.

As for Bowie, he's no less ridiculous to get involved than Scotland's greatest nationalist who (like Bowie's attitude to the UK) wants nothing to do with the country.

Anyway, let's not derail this thread - there's a dedicated discussion here:-

http://www.efestivals.co.uk/forums/topic/167463-the-dirty-independence-question/page-21

[CaledonianGonzo]

I'm siding with my social class. And scottish independence could be disastrous for the poor people of england, wales and nothern ireland. Yet no scottish person seems to give a shit about them. Why not? Do you think we were all voting for the tories?

I can understand the complaints from the English left that we might be seen to be cutting and running - but I'm not sure I've seen any persuasive arguments in favour of us sticking together and going down in one fell swoop of collective misery. You seem to think that we have some sort of moral obligation to save the rest of the UK from itself.

But I'd be hopeful that a progressive, multiculural, leftie Scotland just over the border from the feifdom of Prime Minister BoJo might be a force for the betterment of the whole of the UK.

[CaledonianGonzo]

So long as they were born in scotland, right?

How is alex salmond's plan to slash corporation tax acceptable to any left leaning person by the way?

You don't need to have been born in Scotland - you just need to live here. Most of the most fervently pro-Yes people I know are English people who live here.

I disagree with a lot of Alex Salmond's plans, but - despite the best efforts of Project Fear / Better Together and the national press to cfonvince the nation otherwise - the referendum isn't solely about him. It's a multi-party effort with the SNP in alliance with the Greens, the Scottish Socialists, etc.

[eFestivals]

but I'm not sure I've seen any persuasive arguments in favour of us sticking together

read the Independence White Paper - that gives the reasons for sticking together far better than anyone else is doing, which is hugely ironic.

A shared currency, and shared border controls. Tho unfortunately for Scotland, with other things suggested for an iScotland which make these things impossible by their own choices.

[russycarps]

I can understand the complaints from the English left that we might be seen to be cutting and running - but I'm not sure I've seen any persuasive arguments in favour of us sticking together and going down in one fell swoop of collective misery. You seem to think that we have some sort of moral obligation to save the rest of the UK from itself.

But I'd be hopeful that a progressive, multiculural, leftie Scotland just over the border from the feifdom of Prime Minister BoJo might be a force for the betterment of the whole of the UK.

the moral obligation is to other human beings isnt it? I just cant imagine ever caring more about english people than welsh/irish/scottish people just because of a 6 billion to one chance of being born here.

[eFestivals]

I disagree with a lot of Alex Salmond's plans, but - despite the best efforts of Project Fear / Better Together and the national press to cfonvince the nation otherwise - the referendum isn't solely about him. It's a multi-party effort with the SNP in alliance with the Greens, the Scottish Socialists, etc.

There's more fear raised by the yes campaign than there is the so-called "Project Fear" - one of the things that gets invariably said is that "England" will penalise Scotland for daring to hold this vote. They might as well be saying "vote yes or the English will murder your grannie". It's rather pathetic.

As for the "multi party effort", that would only be the case if those other parties were ridiculing Salmond's white paper - because it's as sane as any Farange statement.

Edited March 17, 2014 by eFestivals

[Peaceman]

not particularly true in either case. Everyone knows the country would choose PR, which is precisely why Dave Moron didn't let us vote to choose PR.

Really? Where is your evidence that the country would choose PR? Where is the great upsurge for electoral change?

what you mean is "recently" and not "consistently".

Fair enough

the polls say very differently. People will be voting with the perception of how fat their personal wallet might be afterwards, rather than what the result on Scotland itself might be, or whether the principle of independence is the right principle.

The motivations become clear in this poll:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-25833692

I still think most people vote for fairly selfish reasons and you would get similar results for the rest of the UK. But if, as a consequence of independence, a progressive govt could show that there is an alternative, then that could be good for all of us

Personally I don't much care what Scotland might choose for itself, but I hate to see people make a different decision than they might otherwise as the result of lies so I wish the Scots would hold Salmond and his "only jam and lots of it" fantasy scenario to account.

The vote is not about Salmond or the SNP despite Westminster wanting to personalise it and have everyone think that. It's about Scotland and where it goes

[CaledonianGonzo]

Yeah, I'm not entirely convinced that the economic case stacks up either, and that's where I'm more hesitant about where my vote is gonna go.

In an ideal world wed shift the border down to Watford and bring Wales, the North and Norn Iron with us. And Cornwall as well if they fancied it. I'm well aware that Scotland's not the only part of the UK currently disenfranchised by Westminster.

[Mr.Tease]

not particularly true in either case. Everyone knows the country would choose PR, which is precisely why Dave Moron didn't let us vote to choose PR.

what you mean is "recently" and not "consistently".

the polls say very differently. People will be voting with the perception of how fat their personal wallet might be afterwards, rather than what the result on Scotland itself might be, or whether the principle of independence is the right principle.

The motivations become clear in this poll:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-25833692

Ha, just read that article- £500 seems to be the price of a nation!

• 52% would support independence, and 30% would oppose it if they thought they would be £500 a year better off.
• 15% would support independence and 72% would be opposed if they thought they would be £500 a year worse off.

[snoopyhill]

So long as they were born in scotland, right?

How is alex salmond's plan to slash corporation tax acceptable to any left leaning person by the way?

The idea is reduce corporation tax to 3% to counter the pull of London and the South East. Potentially creating 27000 jobs, might work might not I would be happy to try it for a few years.

[Peaceman]

Anyway, perhaps this thread should get back to Bowie. Ive been out of work too long with too much time on my hands. Enough.

[Klyde]

There's more fear raised by the yes campaign than there is the so-called "Project Fear" - one of the things that gets invariably said is that "England" will penalise Scotland for daring to hold this vote. They might as well be saying "vote yes or the English will murder your grannie". It's rather pathetic.

As for the "multi party effort", that would only be the case if those other parties were ridiculing Salmond's white paper - because it's as sane as any Farange statement.

Which parts of the white paper do you disagree with?

The fact is Scotland get governments they dont vote for. Thats the key issue here. The Tories and Lib Dems are absolute nobodies in Scotland, yet who is in charge? Scotland hasent voted Tory since the 50s!

Westminster needs Scotland for 2 things. Oil and somewhere to park the weapons of mass destruction. Thats it.

I still havent heard any reasons for being "better together". Not one.

Dave Camerons best effort is team GB and past world fucking war spirit!

Im not voting YES because I have a problem with the rest of the UK and its people, I detest Westminster, the House of Lords and all the Etonian pigs in the trough and the whole Empire bullshit that they think stil exist.

Its a mess of their creation. Its nothing to do with the public.

Stay informed.

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2013/03/19/top-10-unionist-myths-debunked-banned-then-re-debunked/

[russycarps]

Yeah, I'm not entirely convinced that the economic case stacks up either, and that's where I'm more hesitant about where my vote is gonna go.

In an ideal world wed shift the border down to Watford and bring Wales, the North and Norn Iron with us. And Cornwall as well if they fancied it. I'm well aware that Scotland's not the only part of the UK currently disenfranchised by Westminster.

Most of central London is as anti tory as you can get dont forget. Please let my borough of Lewisham join you, all 3 of our constituencies are labour held and always will be. And our councillors are largely unpolluted by the blue half!

The current number of councillors after the last local election is Labour 40, Liberal Democrats 12, Conservative 2 and Green Party 1.

[Mr.Tease]

Which parts of the white paper do you disagree with?

The fact is Scotland get governments they dont vote for. Thats the key issue here. The Tories and Lib Dems are absolute nobodies in Scotland, yet who is in charge? Scotland hasent voted Tory since the 50s!

Westminster needs Scotland for 2 things. Oil and somewhere to park the weapons of mass destruction. Thats it.

I still havent heard any reasons for being "better together". Not one.

Dave Camerons best effort is team GB and past world fucking war spirit!

Im not voting YES because I have a problem with the rest of the UK and its people, I detest Westminster, the House of Lords and all the Etonian pigs in the trough and the whole Empire bullshit that they think stil exist.

Its a mess of their creation. Its nothing to do with the public.

Stay informed.

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2013/03/19/top-10-unionist-myths-debunked-banned-then-re-debunked/

Most people get a government they don't for- how many people on these boards actually voted Tory? Even if Scotland became independent, likely half of the population there would still get a government they didn't vote for- it's the nature of democracy.

I hate Cameron and all the crap that goes with him and his Etonian cronies, but voting for independence because of that is like me shutting myself in my house and declaring myself king of a new country, just so I won't have to look at his face. There are still other people who'd be at his mercy- do they not matter just because you'd be okay?

[Mr.Tease]

Anyway, perhaps this thread should get back to Bowie. Ive been out of work too long with too much time on my hands. Enough.

Bowie started this

[eFestivals]

Really? Where is your evidence that the country would choose PR? Where is the great upsurge for electoral change?

all you have to do is check just about every poll on the subject for the last 15+ years.

I still think most people vote for fairly selfish reasons and you would get similar results for the rest of the UK.

there's a poll that certainly shows it as ONLY selfish reasons beyond 20% of voters, and like you I doubt things would be much different in any UK wide poll.

Stupid people everywhere get blinded by the thought of money.

But if, as a consequence of independence, a progressive govt could show that there is an alternative, then that could be good for all of us

I think it's much more likely to show us that all politicians are bullshitters myself. Anyone who is not se4eing the massive bullshit in the white paper while voting yes is in for a massive disappointment over what benefits there might be in an independent Scotland.

(that's not me saying there will be none btw, just that the white paper massively overplays them).

The vote is not about Salmond or the SNP despite Westminster wanting to personalise it and have everyone think that. It's about Scotland and where it goes

and yet the independence vision that the people of Scotland will be voting on will be Salmond's vision and not any other.

After all, how many people who have been suckered by the white paper and intend to vote yes would still vote yes after an admission of no currency union, no immediate EU entry, the loss of much of the financial sector, it's jobs, AND the taxes it brings in (with big consequences from that onto iScotland's fiscal position), etc, etc, etc?

An acceptance of those things as much more likely than what Salmond claims would be a good start by yes campaigners for THEM to show it's not about Salmond.

If it's not about Salmond's vision, then why aren't the majority of Scots who want a yes vote laughing at him & the white paper?

Vote yes if you want to, just don't go thinking that what you'll get is anything like the "jam jam more jam and only jam" the yes campaign claims.

Edited March 17, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Which parts of the white paper do you disagree with?

The bits which assume that foreign powers will do everything Scotland asks.

I still havent heard any reasons for being "better together". Not one.

Ahhh, I see you haven't read the white paper yourself then, where the yes campaign makes quite a few reasons itself for the positive value of the union.

Im not voting YES because I have a problem with the rest of the UK and its people, I detest Westminster, the House of Lords and all the Etonian pigs in the trough and the whole Empire bullshit that they think stil exist.

you do know that when you vote for independence you aren't voting to murder all politicans, don't you?

Cos you'll still have them, and they'll still sell their soul to big business interests - as Salmond did long ago with Murdoch. You have a bigger Murdoch poodle as leader than Westminster does now.

[The_Amazing_Oblong]

Salmond is delusional. He has shown it time and again. He seems to think that after independance he will be proclaimed King of Scotland and then everyone will do exactly as he wishes due to his god given right as King to rule.

Keep stirling, stay within the EU or walk away from National Debt scot free. I mean come on...

He reminds me of a cricketer at the wicket who has been given out by the umpire but refuses to leave the field.

Edit - I have no problem with the referendum but believe people should not be basing their vote on bullshit disguised as fact.

Edited March 17, 2014 by The_Amazing_Oblong

[snoopyhill]

Salmond is delusional. He has shown it time and again. He seems to think that after independance he will be proclaimed King of Scotland and then everyone will do exactly as he wishes due to his god given right as King to rule.

Keep stirling, stay within the EU or walk away from National Debt scot free. I mean come on...

He reminds me of a cricketer at the wicket who has been given out by the umpire but refuses to leave the field.

Edit - I have no problem with the referendum but believe people should not be basing their vote on bullshit disguised as fact.

Christ! I hope we do keep Stirling that's where my office is.

Edited March 17, 2014 by snoopyhill

[eFestivals]

Christ! I hope we do keep Stirling that's where my office is.

I don't think Salmond would allow it to leave as it has the national statue of Mel Gibson there.

Edited March 17, 2014 by eFestivals

[Klyde]

The bits which assume that foreign powers will do everything Scotland asks.

Ahhh, I see you haven't read the white paper yourself then, where the yes campaign makes quite a few reasons itself for the positive value of the union.

you do know that when you vote for independence you aren't voting to murder all politicans, don't you?

Cos you'll still have them, and they'll still sell their soul to big business interests - as Salmond did long ago with Murdoch. You have a bigger Murdoch poodle as leader than Westminster does now.

"The bits which assume that foreign powers will do everything Scotland asks."

Sounds a bit like Dave and the EU.

Theres a good reason why the Tories and UKIP do so shite in Scotland. We want to be European!

If Scotland is still part of the UK and the in / out vote on the EU happens, Scotland could vote to stay in by 100%, and will still be kicked out as part of the UK due to the popularity of UKIP and the Daily Mail reading mindset of little Englanders. Fair? Nope.

And I still havent heard 1 valid reason why Scotland couldnt gain EU entry. We have most of the gas, the biggest oil reserves, the biggest wave and wind power and fishing in Europe, and we have been a contributing member for 40 years!

Theres never been a country better equipped for entry.

Also for the people that think this is all about Salmond, give it a rest. Please. Its soooo boring.

The SNP has been on the go since the 1960s.

Salmond could retire this afternoon, wouldnt change the message.

Stay informed.

http://wingsoverscotland.com/

[The_Amazing_Oblong]

lol - grandma nazis.

Yes they can definately keep Stirling.

[mrtourette]

So, what's this about Bowie for Glasto?

[Mr.Tease]

So, what's this about Bowie for Glasto?

I think he's chairing some sort of debate on Scottish independence in the Leftfield tent (via satellite link from New York)

[mrtourette]

Will he be sharing his own opinions or will he be passing off Nile Rogers' as his own?