Roger waters

[russycarps]

I didn't know you two liked Nick Cave. That's a new one on me.

[Ed209]

Yeah totally. Its a show. I didn't go see the wall for the musicianship or band chemistry. I went to see it for the spectacle, to have my senses stimulated and to be amazed. And it delivered - big time.

[Wooderson]

Thats fascinating.

Appreciate the honesty regarding show vs gig distinction.

Don't think I'm as easy to accept it as you lot tho. If not, then where would it end? A facsimile of a gig with great visuals is still a facsimile of a gig in my book. Unless its just my naivety and Roger's shows have always been like this.

[Guest]

It's interesting, the distinction between a gig and a show. I think it partly explains my lack of interest in these 'shows'.

[Ed209]

Its like going to the theatre or the opera. OK, so its scripted and calculated, and may lack the spontaneity of a gig - and that may not be your kind of thing, but that doesn't mean theatre lacks artistic merit or the ability to excite and entertain like more conventional gigs can.

The Wall was, in my opinion, a piece of musical theatre on an extraordinary and thrilling scale.

[gibbin82]

Got back from going to see the Wall in Paris at the Stade de France late on Sunday night, a bit knackered from also trying to take in as many of the sights of Paris as possible. Must say I enjoyed it far more than the Wembley gig, after often hearing it said that there would be no bad seat too see it from and you can't be to far away as it is so big and also people saying you can be too close, well I found the opposite to be true. At Wembley I had a seat up in the gods (the 200's at the front of the second tier) and even though the wall is a big show, from there to me it looked insignificant and the sound was awful with the effects speakers giving a terrible pre echo, what it must have been like at the back of the top tier in the 500's I dread to think. This time I stood within spitting distance of the stage and it was the best of all the four times I have seen it. Yes you don't get to see everything that is right across the Wall but even from further back there is so much going on you can't possibly take it all in and during the first half most of the major animation is projected onto the huge circular screen. Something else that I found really improved it for me being so close, was that I could see all of Rogers gestures and expressions which for me really added to the performance. In addition I also saw things that would not have been possible to see further back such as a life sized shadow of a graffiti writer coming across the from the side of the stage during Another Brick in the Wall part 2 and writing "We Don't Need No Education" on the wall. Added to that the sound was amazing, I could hear things crystal clear that I can't even really make out when I play the record at home (and I have a stupidly expensive audio system). An amazing night I just wish I could experience it again next weekend.

Another bonus was that while waiting to collect my ticket I could hear the sound checks which included the sound effects from In the Flesh and the orchestral parts of Comfortably Numb. Having never really listened to the orchestra in isolation on Comfortably Numb I was blown away by how beautiful it is, I wish I could get an copy of it.

Regarding the debate on Roger miming, well from my viewpoint (which was close enough to actually see his lips moving) I didn't think he was, and if he was he is the best lip sync artist ever seen and also the track he was miming to must have had a few parts where his voice broke up a bit! As it is Floyd always have always relied heavily on tapes or prerecorded digital tracks and sound effects and I don't think there are any live acts now that play it straight without the benefit of audio enhancements (backing vocals, double tracking etc.). What may make people think that Roger is miming is that the video projections of him at the ends of the wall often are not in sync with him (even more pronounced the further back you are due to the audio delay), that is because they are pre recorded and not live video from the show, hence the appearance of miming as Rogers mouth doesn't always exactly match the words sung, I can confirm though this is not the case when you can actually see him singing the parts.

As for it being a show and not a gig, it is both a show and a meticulously accurate musical performance, if that's not your thing well that is what Floyd have alway been known for (even back in 72 when touring Darkside of the Moon they were playing in time to taped sound effects), the only difference here is that Roger Waters has honed it to a fine degree of perfection.

Something else I heard on the night (or at least I thought I did) was the pig seemed to be squealing when it met its fate by being consumed by the crowd. I was a bit far away from it but it definitely sounded like it to me, but can anyone who has been closer to it confirm this to me please. (or could it just have been the sound of escaping gas and sweaty fingers trying to tear the pig apart)

Finally Roger said something at the end of the night which gave me a bit of hope that I might get another chance to see the Wall. After the end of 'Outside the Wall' Roger thanked the crowd and said it was a great night to end the tour and it "may be the last ever appearance of the Wall", it could be me just being hopeful but he did seem to emphasise the word "may" and I think he has definitely not ruled it out.

P.S. Thanks to all the nice French people I met who helped make my weekend in Paris a great one

[gibbin82]

Anyone who missed the Roger Water interview on HardTalk there is another chance to catch it on BBC iPlayer here http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/bigscreen/tv/episode/b03b9578/

It is a UK only service but if you are overseas do a google search for Proxy Servers and you should be able to see it

[Guest]

I don't think there are any live acts now that play it straight without the benefit of audio enhancements (backing vocals, double tracking etc.).

[Wooderson]

I was in the 3rd row in Dublin and had a fantastic view of the "show".

To my mind there is zero debate that he was miming for considerable portions of it.

If there is tactit acceptance of this within the fanbase thats fine I guess. For me it was off putting and took me out of the performance. Why mime vocals?? They are intrinsic to the character of the show. This forum doesnt accept lip synching from pop stars so why would we from so called rock stars just cuz theyve spent a small fortune on the stage's bells and whistles?

If all performers were to go down this route then count me the fuck out.

[gibbin82]

I think there are

optimism personified

sounds like a good time was had

[Ed209]

I was in the 3rd row in Dublin and had a fantastic view of the "show".

To my mind there is zero debate that he was miming for considerable portions of it.

If there is tactit acceptance of this within the fanbase thats fine I guess. For me it was off putting and took me out of the performance. Why mime vocals?? They are intrinsic to the character of the show. This forum doesnt accept lip synching from pop stars so why would we from so called rock stars just cuz theyve spent a small fortune on the stage's bells and whistles?

If all performers were to go down this route then count me the fuck out.

[gibbin82]

I was in the 3rd row in Dublin and had a fantastic view of the "show".

To my mind there is zero debate that he was miming for considerable portions of it.

Edited September 23, 2013 by gibbin82

[russycarps]

what songs did he mime anyway?

If it's just the trial then it's sort of understandable.

[Wooderson]

what songs did he mime anyway?

If it's just the trial then it's sort of understandable.

[Ed209]

I would have a guess at some high parts One of My Turns, Don't Leave Me Now, some high parts of Hey You, Bring the Boys Back Home (and The Trial)

Those were the points where I said to myself, Wow, he sounds great tonight, and then realised a more logical explanation was that he was miming.

[russycarps]

I would have a guess at some high parts One of My Turns, Don't Leave Me Now, some high parts of Hey You, Bring the Boys Back Home (and The Trial)

Those were the points where I said to myself, Wow, he sounds great tonight, and then realised a more logical explanation was that he was miming.

[Wooderson]

if true, then I'd be disappointed I must admit .

While I agree it is more of a "show" than a gig, I still would expect everyone to be playing the instruments and singing (as much as is normal anyway). Aside from on songs that obviously cant really be sung live (such as the trial).

There is no real excuses for miming to hey you for example though I reckon...

how can you be so sure about this wooderson????

[gibbin82]

Whether Roger was lip syncing or not it was still a great show and if there was any jiggery pokery involved I am sure it would have been in the best interests of making it as perfect rendition of the original album as possible. The thing is RW has been touring for many years now, his lyrical style does have some high and almost screamed parts and at 70 years old I would be quite surprised if he hasn't over the years damaged or changed his vocal chords for the worst. As for parts that would be likely candidates for lip syncing the megaphone parts of Waiting for the Worm would be an almost certainty I can't imagine their would be many a third of his age who could reproduce such manic ferocity night after night. To be honest if it is what it takes to be able to see the Wall put on by a 70 year old I will take it, there still is so much to admire such as in Dave Kilminsters, Snowy Whites and John Carins skill as top rate musicians and also wonder at in the superb technical marvel of the projections and timing of the wall construction. So if Roger Waters decides his croaky voice might diminish that, I will forgive him.

If there was one part of the show definitely being lip synced though was by those sneaky kids in Another Brick in the Wall part 2, I am sure they were, so maybe I should have asked for my money back

[russycarps]

Cuz I was seated max 40 feet away from him for most of the show. And I have good eyesight!

Here's something from last summer in the States:

"Halfway through "Comfortably Numb," Roger Waters let his microphone drop down toward his hips for a brief moment and his mouth stopped moving. However, his vocals sounded just as clear as they had a moment earlier. For anyone not sitting close to the stage, that may have been the only clue that Waters wasn't singing live for much of his performance of The Wall on Tuesday night at Charlotte's Time Warner Cable Arena. Unless, of course, you saw him cough during "Mother" or noticed he had nearly closed lips while belting out "In the Flesh.""

http://clclt.com/vibes/archives/2012/07/11/live-review-roger-waters-time-warner-cable-arena-7102012

From reading your stuff on here for years mate, if someone came on here and tried to justify a fancy version of Milli Vanilli you'd have their guts for garters.

[Wooderson]

If (low hanging fruit) Bono was to mime at a gig this forum would go through him for a shortcut even more than usual.

Waters is getting away with murder here. Miming significant proportions of a show/gig/performance is unacceptable in my book. Yes, even on stuff like "The Trial" that you seem to give him a pass on. This is a hugely successful tour and I heard nothing of the lip synching until I saw it with my own eyes.

S'funny cuz I like his croaky vocals.

[5co77ie]

are you sure he's lip syncing? I know in some of the pieces the footage projected on the wall is not from the live show - could it be you are seeing that footage and assuming as he's not in time with it he's lip syncing?

[gibbin82]

It's no secret that even back in the day Floyd used lots of pre-recorded sound effects and voices, it was all part of the music (and almost Nick Masons sole contribution). Without them the Floyd experience would have been impossible to recreate live. Now if Roger Waters voice or lack of it was to be a detriment to the experience I am sure replacing parts of it would be seen to him as a natural progression of what he has alway done. With Floyd/Waters music it is a completely different animal to the Stones, U2 or anyone else and the sound is the prime consideration in the performance. If it is the case that Roger Waters can no longer produce the vocal performance of many years ago and he had carried on regardless without any pre recorded vocals, I am sure the tour would have been slammed and it would have been a huge disappointment after waiting so many years. Yes there may be (probably) some lip syncing but how much who know, personally I believe if there is it will be only a small part of it and I am sure as a musician Roger Waters will want to do as much as he can do live and only replace the things he no longer can.

Regarding live gigs have any of you ever been to a concert and thought it sounded amazing only to hear it back later as a bootleg and realised how awful it actually was and the live experience had made up for the lack of decent sound? Also it seems to be quite acceptable for many artists to manipulate their live performances when releasing them as albums, even such respected artist such as Peter Gabriel have re recorded the whole of the vocal tracks on some live album ( the Lamb Lies Down on Broadway for example) and many more re record whole instrumental tracks in the studio. The one thing I do know is listen to any of the Wall bootlegs that have been decently recorded ((try Yeeshkul ) and they all sound superb. And if Roger Waters has taken upon himself to do the necessary alterations at the front end instead of later for a live release I applaud him for giving me the best experience possible. Any comparisons to Milli Vanilli, , Madonna or Beyonce really ought to dismissed with the contempt they deserve, Roger Waters has written this stuff and has performed it live in the past without any vocal trickery. So to me criticising him for wanting to put on the best sounding show he can now despite his advancing years, is a bit like diminishing the historical greatness of Muhamid Ali, because if you were put him in a ring now he would get a pounding.

[Wooderson]

are you sure he's lip syncing? I know in some of the pieces the footage projected on the wall is not from the live show - could it be you are seeing that footage and assuming as he's not in time with it he's lip syncing?

[Wooderson]

Any comparisons to Milli Vanilli, , Madonna or Beyonce really ought to dismissed with the contempt they deserve, Roger Waters has written this stuff and has performed it live in the past without any vocal trickery. So to me criticising him for wanting to put on the best sounding show he can now despite his advancing years, is a bit like diminishing the historical greatness of Muhamid Ali, because if you were put him in a ring now he would get a pounding.

[gibbin82]

*Tries not to bite*