£200 barrier breached

[eFestivals]

I was just referring to people on the dole but you're right. However if I was on the dole I wouldn't be comfortable with Joe Public knowing what I was doing to try get a job/get educated etc.

why should the unwaged have to go beyond the justification they do now? It's not like the working would have to publish daily time-sheets.

Tax returns will do. Any disparity between a published tax return and a lifestyle would soon be picked up on, no differently for those the unwaged to what would happen with the rich.

[Verbal]

It's not. The proof is in the fact that the country is fucked.

The country is not only fucked because of too-high public spending. They're two sides of the same coin, and tax receipts from the richest have been going proportionally down no less than public spending has gone proportionally up.

[eFestivals]

But if I get taxed more where is the stimulus for me to progress and earn more

I'd say it's complete bollocks to say that you only do what you do for the money (are you really that shallow?), but even if it's not true it doesn't matter. Because no person is irreplaceable, so if you wouldn't work hard you'd be replaced (and so lose out even further) by someone who would.

Ultimately the problem is not one of taxation, but instead one of wages. Those at the bottom are paid too little (the proof is in the standard need for tax credits for the standard family) while those at the top are paid far too much.

and its not for one second as if I am hugely well off, i had to scrimp and save for years to get a deposit together to buy a house, I had to leave London so i could afford a house rather than a flat, i have had to change jobs as I could no longer afford to commute into London

what you really mean is that just like most of the rest of us, you spend up-to what you earn.

If I start getting taxed more I may as well not bother, if my tax hit 50% I would be better off taking a lower paid job and I am not a very very high earner at all

I see that economics isn't your strong point.

And economics is a very poor way to define your life anyway. You need to realise that you are more than what you earn.

[gizmoman]

That said I've found this thread fundamentally dispiriting. It's depressing that people think unemployed people are somehow 'the other' or less important. We're all one payday away from that situation. Guess I was hoping for more empathy, more solidarity on this forum. Damn, this is the closest anything has made me come to thinking 'nah, I don't want to go to Glastonbury any more', not if this thread is representative. Not all of course, some diamonds among the dogshit, as ever.

[The Nal]

why should the unwaged have to go beyond the justification they do now? It's not like the working would have to publish daily time-sheets.

[russycarps]

That's not how I read it at all, reckon you're being a bit harsh there, Russy.

[eFestivals]

it would be nice to live in a socialist utopia but in the real world you have to live on what you have.

the real world could be a socialist utopia ... when that attitude isn't there to stop it happening.

Isn't it great that everyone is so fair and reasonable that they want the best for others?

But they're only prepared to act for the best for others if everyone else is doing it first before them.

[eFestivals]

What justification?

Perhaps it's different in Ireland, but over here the days of cash handouts with no justification are long gone.

[The Nal]

Perhaps it's different in Ireland, but over here the days of cash handouts with no justification are long gone.

Edited October 10, 2012 by The Nal

[whisty]

the real world could be a socialist utopia ... when that attitude isn't there to stop it happening.

Isn't it great that everyone is so fair and reasonable that they want the best for others?

But they're only prepared to act for the best for others if everyone else is doing it first before them.

Edited October 10, 2012 by whisty

[jimmyk83]

the real world could be a socialist utopia ... when that attitude isn't there to stop it happening.

Isn't it great that everyone is so fair and reasonable that they want the best for others?

But they're only prepared to act for the best for others if everyone else is doing it first before them.

[eFestivals]

Maybe I'm a bit long in the tooth now, but can't see it happening ever, not where humans are involved. Maybe the only chance of this is in a closed society, on a small ish Island or something that cannot be reached by outsiders, even then.............

We have a society where the central principle is individual greed, and where it's seen as a good thing to exploit others fore your own benefit. We are wrongly encouraged to believe that any successes are all of our own doing.

It doesn't have to be like that. As a start, we could begin by teaching people the truth about these things, instead of encouraging them to believe lies.

[russycarps]

Maybe I'm a bit long in the tooth now, but can't see it happening ever, not where humans are involved. Maybe the only chance of this is in a closed society, on a small ish Island or something that cannot be reached by outsiders, even then. I know I'm teaching Granny to suck eggs but.........

"Many of these worlds are set outside history in a golden age, before time began or in a mythical time governed by its own rules.

Human nature, social reality and world history are complex and complicated. Are we able to imagine ourselves living in these worlds? What about individual will and desire?

Think about the purpose of these perfect descriptions.

• Are they deliberately impossible?

• Are they meant to be compared with everyday life?

• What function does fantasy fulfil?

Edited October 10, 2012 by russycarps

[eFestivals]

What are the things you're doing to move towards a socialist utopia? Not a barbed question, I'm interested.

I'm an employer who doesn't take the piss with his employees wages.

I'm an employer who doesn't abuse the tax system.

I've made deliberate decisions to step back from the rat race and the rewards it was bring me.

I'm supportive of taxation changes that would significantly impact on me personally, not because I'm stupid but because I recognise it as the right thing to do.

Despite being a homeowner, I'm one of necessity and not for profit. I would like to see the whole principle of private land ownership over-thrown.

I don't claim perfection for myself, but I'm anything but resistant to big change - which is a huge difference to many.

[Mardy]

For me, it's all about moving *towards* fairness and equality, progress towards that ideal, not letting selfishness and greed rule the day.

Do i think we could have some sort of utopia? honestly realistically, probably not. Would I like to see a more equal, fairer society and is that achievable, yes, definitely.

[whisty]

There will never be a Utopia of equality for all, this is guaranteed, unless we evolve into a non greed/selfish based species. As Rusycarp says, this would take x thousands of years.

Socialism has been proven not to work. Maybe in a small group it can but is always impacted from outside by others.

Would I like to see a more equal, fairer society and is that achievable, yes, definitely.

Edited October 10, 2012 by whisty

[russycarps]

however likely or unlikely it is, it can't happen if people assume it can't

and it most certainly can, if we really want it to

where or when was that..?

[whisty]

however likely or unlikely it is, it can't happen if people assume it can't

and it most certainly can, if we really want it to

where or when was that..?

Edited October 10, 2012 by whisty

[Jie Bie]

Yes.

[jimmyk83]

I'm an employer who doesn't take the piss with his employees wages.

I'm an employer who doesn't abuse the tax system.

I've made deliberate decisions to step back from the rat race and the rewards it was bring me.

I'm supportive of taxation changes that would significantly impact on me personally, not because I'm stupid but because I recognise it as the right thing to do.

Despite being a homeowner, I'm one of necessity and not for profit. I would like to see the whole principle of private land ownership over-thrown.

I don't claim perfection for myself, but I'm anything but resistant to big change - which is a huge difference to many.

[The Nal]

The massive boost to this being the internet

[russycarps]

The same internet which has spawned a whole new form of billion dollar companies and corporate greed.

[eFestivals]

Socialism has been proven not to work.

really? Where?

Meanwhile, capitalism has been proven to not work to a far greater extent than anything which can be pinned against socialism.

Edited October 10, 2012 by eFestivals

[whisty]

really? Where?

Meanwhile, capitalism has been proven to not work to a far greater extent than anything which can be pinned against socialism.

[eFestivals]

It's unthinkable to me that we'll get anything even remotely like this utopia in my lifetime, or my childrens.

if you think it won't then you ensure that it won't. Things only move when you push or pull them.