The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, Stash said:

An election manifesto is a stationary point in time document. A lot has happened since the 2011 manifestos were produced by all parties. The word austerity might not be in the document in 2011, but the words unfair & fair were in there plenty. Unfair was usually attached to UK taxes, and fair usually appeared in a paragraph detailing what the SNP would do differently. 

However, that was beside the point when weeks after winning that election, Salmond started talking about the independence campaign, where comparisons to Tory austerity were plentiful. 

I know plenty in Scotland feel they've been badly governed, but perhaps that has more to do with the free passes they hand out to their politicians and nothing to do with Westminster at all....?

And they like to claim tory voters are dumb...? At least tories can count when they vote stupid.

 

[Comfy Bean]

4 hours ago, eFestivals said:

without finding the missing £10Bn, an independent Scotland would be a vastly different place - it would not be the dream you voted for last year of everything staying the same except sovereignty.

An iScotland would have to implement massive cuts.

You know this. Why do you need it said, yet again?

 

Scotland ( without the i ) has been having to implement massive cuts for several years now. Who knew !

In the space of a few days you have varied the above figure from £8Bn to £15Bn to £10Bn. 

I think you take yourself far too seriously but fortunately I doubt very much that anyone else does 

I would add that the numbers that you just pick out of the sky are also for a year that has yet to be determined and will be atleast a decade down the line.

[Comfy Bean]

On 14/12/2015 at 9:40 AM, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Ok, I take your point but speculating is really all any of us can do as Scotland voted to stick with Dave. Of course we are talking about an " artificial time-scale ". We will be for a good while yet I reckon ?

On the first sentence I would probably stick with my general point. I`m guessing at 15 years but you could just as easily say 10, 15, 20, 30............ How anyone can do anything more than " guess " at the finances in an independent Scotland at an undetermined time is beyond me.

I`ll amend my second sentence to - I believe that Scotland could manage to be an independent country taking it`s own decisions away from the current Westminster set up. 

I am willing to debate the possibilities so not sure why you want to claim that I`m not ?

Why don`t you set out a few specifics on why you believe that Scotland could NOT manage to be an independent Country and we can take it from there 

 

On 20/12/2015 at 10:24 AM, comfortablynumb1910 said:

 

Stash can we pick up on the " fallacy " of my argument ?

 I know you don`t like my " evangelising " on the prospect of a successful indy Scotland so why not give us some specifics on why you think it can`t happen ?

I thought I`d try for a third and final time to engage in the debate Stash that you accused me of avoiding. I saw you popped in again today to agree with Neil but still nothing on the above ?

Edited December 23, 2015 by comfortablynumb1910

[Comfy Bean]

On 22/12/2015 at 2:03 PM, russycarps said:

It's soon time for the annual summary of this thread, and the votes for "most bonkers snipper statement" will need to be cast.

Those three basic mantras you list are certainly in the running, but at the moment it's looking like a two horse race between the astonishing claim that Scotland had none of the UK national debt, and the utterly terrifying, infamous "the finances of independent scotland are irrelevant" declaration.

Exciting times!

Russy your right mate, exciting times indeed for the snappers. Incredible lead in the polls, especially amongst the young and not so rich. I fear you are now going to troll the shit out of this thread with these "quotes".

It`s always good to look back on the annual highlights of this and any other thread. I don`t think it was this year so probably doesnt count but who can forget the time a while back when you accused me of wanting to steal food from the mouths of England`s children. It was back in the days of the SNP only having 6 MP`s and the YES vote was starting to gather momentum. Was it this year that while apologising for linking to a general news discussion story you apologised for linking to the Telegraph and admitted that you only read it to get mud to sling at us snippers 

Anywayz, to add extra spice to this years awards why don`t we go with actual, real quotes. Things that people have actually said. I realise that would be ground breaking but it`s the SNP we are normally talking about 

If we agree on these terms then I`m in and will be delighted / honoured should I be declared the winner. As it was your idea I nominate you as judge. In the event of a draw then perhaps LJS`s butler who pops in from time to time could hold the casting vote.

I`ll give it some thought but off the top of my head I`m liking Neil claiming Nicola Sturgeon had no political support in Scotland and who could forget his claim that Scotland had Europe`s longest coastline. We were fortunate to have someone then provide us with the actual distance of some other European coast lines . Great scenes.

I`ll link again to perhaps my all time favourite from one of the stars of this thread. Neil`s hero and saviour of the union who`s prediction proved to be further out than any of us on here could even manage.

Merry Christmas to you all and all the very best for 2016 

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jamieross/its-been-easy-its-been-to-outdo-the-snp#.fsA1D0GJB

 

[LJS]

15 hours ago, eFestivals said:

So what you're saying is that they're anti-austerity for Westminster laws, but pro-austerity within Scotland?

No astonishingly, that's not what I said. But then when you precede a statement with "so what you're saying", it's a dead cert that what follows is absolutely not what the person in question is saying, but something far easier to construct an argument against. Now I amy be mistaken here (I'm not) but I am sure you have spoken about governments having mandates to do stuff. Do the SNP have a mandate to increase income tax?

 

No they don't. 

 

I will be disappointed if they don't seek a mandate in May to do something which even you might describe as anti- austerity...we will see.

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You've eaten more Dundee cake than I was thinking yesterday.

I really don't like Dundee cake & cannot remember the last time I ate any.

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But in it's effect it's not a flat tax rate.

It's a flat tax rate. In effect or not - You can argue that the rich pay proportionately more tax when you have a flat rate increase & mathematically you will be correct. The point you have studiously avoided to address is that the effect on real disposable income (after you've done the shopping) is much greater on the lowest paid. 

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Further, the left-ish idea about taxation is that flat rate or not it doesn't5 matter. All are taxed to put the money to those who need it. None are exempt from such tax, not even because of low income - because low income alone does not mean 'poverty'.

Of course it doesn't. for example some people on low income Are wives (or husbands, or civil partners) whose partners earn loads, but they are a small minority & it is reasonable to assume that enough people on low incomes are in "poverty" to make your point a big fat squirrel.

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The idea is that the state knows better how to use than the individual. Instead, you're spouting the tory idea that the earner of money is best placed to decide how to spend it.

No I'm not. that is a complete & utter lie. Pants on fire,

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And all the while you're doing that you're using the excuse of the poorest to avoid *YOU* having to pay more tax., You're penalising the poor for your own advantage, which is precisely what you accuse the tories of doing.

I am actually quite offended by this. You have absolutely no fucking idea if this is true or not. An apology would be quite nice.

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Want to tell me I'm no Marxist again, LJS? Shall I point out what you are?

Well you ain't gonna win Marxist of the year. are you? And i believe you have jsut pointed out what I am (in you demented opinion)

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Yes they do.

For govts to spend more - your version of anti-austerity, remember? - requires govts to tax more. The SG have the power to seriously tax, therefore they have the power to seriously alter austerity.

There are 2 sides to the economy as I am sure you are aware. Raising tax alone will only make austerity worse.

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The more they tax the more serious they are about anti-austerity. No tax equals no anti-austerity.

You are really losing it now.

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FFS.

It can only be different to that is there's free money, and while i know you believe that there is free money you can never find it. How odd.

calm down.

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If a hated-by-you politician, another politician, had said what swinney has you'd call them a liar.

The SNP get a free pass from you.

Do you ever read anything I write? I have criticised the SNP for loads of stuff. Do i need to put it in a graph before you understand it?

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No one gets a free pass from me, which is why I laugh at Corbyn. We all know he's a joke,

but some people are happy to eat up their own shit, just as you're doing over Swinney.

you are always banging om about democracy. So why is the Corbyn a joke? He probably has the biggest mandate of any party leader since Screaming Lord Sutch. 

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Chokka's graphs are not misleading because he gives 100% of the context..

Yup, including referencing the "fact" that real available disposable income is also relevant. 

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He states exactly what he's doing, rather than hides anything about it by making grand statements that the stupid might suck up and call 'largely correct'.

I understand why you adore him, He is just like you . He knows the cost of everything & the value of nothing.

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And he proves that what you call a 'flat rate' is not a flat rate but in fact taxes progressively, while you claim falsehoods as accurate.

Does he now? The problem fo ryou is that his whole point is to prove Swinney was lying. My point which he at least acknowledges is that the progressiveness or otherwise of tax rises is a little more complicated. 

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It's one thing to be stupid and later realise you have been, it's something else to be stupid, later realise you have been but remain proud and supportive of your stupidity.

FFS.

Self awareness is a good thing & I think its really big of you to recognise that , in lauding Severin Carrol's execrable article, you made a total dick of yourself. I take my hat off to you.

Edited December 23, 2015 by LJS

[LJS]

10 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Cool.

I'd love to know what you wrote that you felt the need to apologise for because apologising certainly is not one of your strengths !!!!!

 

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Back to Scotland...

I'm repeating the same things

Yes you are!

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with the same facts

Ah! facts. well we know how you struggle with them ...

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still in place and true as I was saying before the indyref.

Or false as you were saying before the Indy ref

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That the oil revenues were too volatile to base Scotland's economy on,

According to you oil spokesman< Russy they aren't volatile any more. They are on a certain plummeting downward spiral

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and that the revenues were shrinking anyway; that the finances are poor just because of Scotland's geographic circumstances,

 

Is it because of our tiny wee coastline?

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and iScotland couldn't afford to maintain current levels of social spending, and that the shortfall was massive - too big to cover or make-up by other means.

Well, we'll just have to save money on other things then to continue with our social spending.

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You've had to abandon all of the indy finances claims of that time, because all that was said by the 'no's' proved to be true.

Well since I didn't espouse " all of the indy finances claims of that time" I'm not quite sure how I have been able to abandon them.

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You've grasped at other hopes, such as the claimed better growth, but have had to give those up when the facts were pointed out to you.

I have given up nothing & I challenge you to show me where I have, 

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Which is the case that's standing up, and which is the case that's collapsed?

Well, as you you have just made up a whole lot of of stuff that is complete bollocks, it's really hard to tell, isn't it?

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You're left holding a dream without the means to fulfil the detail of that dream - meaning you can't have that dream fulfilled.

Tell you what, Neil: let's just wait & see.

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Eventually you'll have to find an altered dream if you wish to hold onto the indie part - a dog-eat-dog Scotland where the poor are left in the shit by the clear choice of the people of Scotland, without a single tory or westminster politician responsible for it.

Is that opposed to the current situation where the poor are left in the shit by the electoral choice of voters in you neck of the woods?

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Which will you give up first? Social welfare, or indy?

Social welfare is fast disappearing without any indy. So i'll tell you what, I'll take my chances with Indy.

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Which will Scotland's other snippers give up first? Social welfare, or indy?

Stupid question.

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I never did get an answer to the question I asked about at what point does indy become just-not-worth it. It looks like the choice has been made.

 

Ok here's your answer ....10  past three on the 12th of never

 

ask a silly question....

Edited December 24, 2015 by LJS

[LJS]

9 hours ago, Stash said:

An election manifesto is a stationary point in time document. A lot has happened since the 2011 manifestos were produced by all parties. The word austerity might not be in the document in 2011, but the words unfair & fair were in there plenty. Unfair was usually attached to UK taxes, and fair usually appeared in a paragraph detailing what the SNP would do differently. 

I hate to be a pedant but as far as I can see the word unfair appears only once in the 2011 SNP manifesto in a reference ot aboloshing "unfair" prescription charges. the UK is not mentioned.

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However, that was beside the point when weeks after winning that election, Salmond started talking about the independence campaign, where comparisons to Tory austerity were plentiful. 

Yup, & your point is? 

Edited December 24, 2015 by LJS

[LJS]

8 hours ago, eFestivals said:

without finding the missing £10Bn, an independent Scotland would be a vastly different place - it would not be the dream you voted for last year of everything staying the same except sovereignty.

How can a £10bn that is an estimate of a deficit for an imaginary country that doesn't exist in the past when it definitely didn't exist be missing. 

 

It's like asking "where is the missing unicorn?"

 

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An iScotland would have to implement massive cuts.

You know this.

No I don't.

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Why do you need it said, yet again?

 

I don't

Why do you need to say it again?

8 hours ago, eFestivals said:

I know plenty in Scotland feel they've been badly governed,

Yup. as do plenty in England (including, I suspect, you)

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but perhaps that has more to do with the free passes they hand out to their politicians

The free passes we handed out went to the Labour Party, but it's OK we've sorted that.

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and nothing to do with Westminster at all....?

I dunno. Do you feel well served by Westminster?

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And they like to claim tory voters are dumb...? At least tories can count when they vote stupid.

 

I don't think anyone has ever doubted that Tory voters can count. 

Edited December 23, 2015 by LJS

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Scotland ( without the i ) has been having to implement massive cuts for several years now. Who knew !

Nope, they're tiny cuts in comparison.

But don't let the facts get in the way of your fantasies.

 

10 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

In the space of a few days you have varied the above figure from £8Bn to £15Bn to £10Bn. 

I've also varied what I've referred to with those numbers.

Which only gets to show how little you're paying attention, and why you fail to understand.

 

10 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I think you take yourself far too seriously but fortunately I doubt very much that anyone else does 

A serious discussion requires taking facts seriously.

A vacuous discussion means you can throw off massive factors as meaningless, just as you do.

 

10 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I would add that the numbers that you just pick out of the sky are also for a year that has yet to be determined and will be atleast a decade down the line.

We know what the numbers are now.
We know the numbers are getting worse and not better.
We know that the only improvement to those numbers can come via cuts in spending.
We know that the only improvement to those numbers to enable Scotland to self-fund would come via much bigger cuts than the tories are making.

Facts, and not fantasies.

Inconvenient, aren't they?

And despite your squirrels, a self-funding Scpotland still has the same problem that the No's always said it would.

The SNP's white paper has been shown as the joke the No's always said it was.

The snippers are scratching around and failing to find an alternative plan, and that's because there isn't one apart from massive cuts in public spending.

Which is why LJS has had to state the laughable "irrelevant" and you always deny the provable facts.

Oh dear.

[Stash]

10 hours ago, LJS said:

Yup, & your point is? 

The point is that you can forget what was in a manifesto 5 years ago when everything coming out Bute House starts with Red Tories, English Tories or Westminster. 

The SNP has been preaching anti-austerity for years, but when given the opportunity to do anything about it, they do sweet FA. 

[eFestivals]

On 24/12/2015 at 10:44 AM, Stash said:

The point is that you can forget what was in a manifesto 5 years ago when everything coming out Bute House starts with Red Tories, English Tories or Westminster. 

The SNP has been preaching anti-austerity for years, but when given the opportunity to do anything about it, they do sweet FA. 

They preach a lot of things, and a lot of them turn out to be guff.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/15_04_11_labourdoc.pdf
http://www.thinkscotland.org/files/ThinkScotland%20%E2%80%93%20SNP's%20broken%20promises%20revealed.pdf
http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-snp-failed-deliver/21455
Etc, etc, etc.

This is apparently the new politics of something better, and not just another bunch of lying politicians with the same mug-electorate.

 

[LJS]

11 hours ago, eFestivals said:

They preach a lot of things, and a lot of them turn out to be guff.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/15_04_11_labourdoc.pdf
http://www.thinkscotland.org/files/ThinkScotland%20%E2%80%93%20SNP's%20broken%20promises%20revealed.pdf
http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-snp-failed-deliver/21455
Etc, etc, etc.

This is apparently the new politics of something better, and not just another bunch of lying politicians with the same mug-electorate.

 

I love a laugh at this time of year & you have delivered big time Neil.  did you read this trough load of manure before you posted it? Or was it like Severin Carrol's article which you were subsequently forced to admit was "dreadful".

 

So let's see what Santa Neil has brought us to expose the lies & deceit of the SNP. First up a Labour party document which entirely focuses on the SNP 2007 manifesto. Leaving aside the fact that many of the conclusions are woolly and unsubstantiated, the simple fact is the 2007 SNP government was a minority administration with 47 seats out of 126. It would be frankly astonishing if such a government had kept all its promises. So a biased source trying to make political capital out of stating the bleeding obvious. 

 

Next up are Think Scotland. This sounds a lot more serious it even talks about its "m e t h o d o l o g y" and about " the research in this ThinkScotland paper."  What it doesn't tell is who "Think Scotland" are or who did the research. They are Tories, indeed it would appear mainly Murdo Fraser msp. That doesn't necessarily make it wrong... but it certainly makes it far from impartial. 

 

It categorises the SNP's pledges as either "abandoned" "failed to deliver" or "still chasing" It can only find 28 promises to fit these categories from the 2007 manifesto which sounds not too bad for a minority government & suggests they aren't trying nearly as hard as their Labour opponents.

 

Unlike your first attempts TS does address the 2011 manifesto & lists 22 "promises" 50% of which they are apparently "still chasing - Now it was written with a year of that parliament still to run so that seems fair enough.

 

Among the failed to deliver are flagship policies such as 

 

“We will give the go ahead for the necessary track improvements to cut journey times from Inverness to Edinburgh by 45 minutes.”

“In Edinburgh school pupils will be given free bus travel before and after school to encourage greater use of public transport.”

 

 i have absolutely no idea if the Scottish government have failed to deliver on these "pledges" & I am not interested enough to find out but TS thinks they've failed.

 

Your last effort is from channel 4 who are the first stab at impartiality you provide  - they only find about 3 areas to complain about and surprise surprise they all reference their 2007 manifesto . despite being written only 3 months ago, they appear to be unable to find anything from the current manifesto.

 

None of the above says that the SNP are above criticism or that they are better than anyone else. What it does show yet again, is how desperate you are to find anything, however pathetic, to smear them with.

 

 

[LJS]

On 12/24/2015 at 10:44 AM, Stash said:

The point is that you can forget what was in a manifesto 5 years ago when everything coming out Bute House starts with Red Tories, English Tories or Westminster. 

Does it? not that I've heard.

On 12/24/2015 at 10:44 AM, Stash said:

The SNP has been preaching anti-austerity for years, but when given the opportunity to do anything about it, they do sweet FA. 

What should they have done then? Have you bought the "across the bopard tac increase" is progressive" line?

 

[LJS]

From another place

 eFestivals said:

I was talking Scottish Parliament which gets pocket money, and so has not need to make financial forecasts.

 

Funny that. Christ knows how they are meant to be combating austerity then

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, LJS said:

From another place

 eFestivals said:

Funny that. Christ knows how they are meant to be combating austerity then

Your comment would have a point if they intended to combat austerity. What have you missed about their pursuit and implementation of anti-anti-austerity policies?

Meanwhile, it's true that not a single penny of the SG's spending is dependent on their own forecasts. It could be, but I guess they don't wish you to call them failures for making shit forecasts...?

Oh, except they have made forecasts and they called it the Independence White Paper, and the accuracy of those forecasts was much MUCH worse than anything that Osborne or the OBR have ever got wrong ... but for some reason you're not calling them shit or failures for their own dreadful forecasts. How odd.

Now, would you like to delve into the facts of how much worse Salmond's forecasts were than Osborne's or the OBR's - to the extent of them being blatant lies and him knowing they're lies - or would you prefer to change tack and never call Salmond the liar that he is while pointing at your own stupidity for believing him, while also rightfully giving Osborne and the OBR their own free passes for their lesser crimes?

[Stash]

I read about the investigation into Philip Boswell by the parliamentary commissioner for standards. It was on the BBC News homepage so passes LJS' test on whether it's real/important/credible news or not. 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-35230380

I'm confused about what he's being investigated over though. I thought we were told by the SNP last month that he had declared all interests in line with the rules? No I know he's guilty of talking out of both sides of his face, but that's par for the course with politicians, even true scottis ones. So what's the story. Is there something more to it than we were told or have those nasty tories managed to do concoct another SNP Bad story and roped the standards commissioner into it?

[eFestivals]

there's not been a post in here for a while, and as it's today I thought it was going to be about the boycott of Tunnocks. Apparently it's a good thing to try and make fellow Scots unemployed and poorer if the boss is a nasty status-quo-ist.but it's SNP-baaaad to mention that effect.

I wasn't aware there was a 3rd SNP MP in trouble. I've no idea how that had passed me by.

/goes off to to do a quick catch-up.....

 

 

[eFestivals]

It sounds like a bit of a storm in a tea cup, this one.

I'm more interested to hear how the criminal investigations are going for the other 2. It's starting to look like the Scottish Plod ... erm ... plod.

 

[LJS]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-35241474

 

Will Neil be dialling in?

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, LJS said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-35241474

 

Will Neil be dialling in?

I'm sure someone will take the trouble to throw him some awkward questions, just as I'm certain others will cheer the evasive answers he gives in reply and claim them as adequate answers.

[Comfy Bean]

7 hours ago, LJS said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-35241474

 

Will Neil be dialling in?

Happy New Year folks 

I think it`s a pre-record as the transcript of the first call has leaked online.

AS : "When I was first minister of Scotland, there were times when I had to bite my tongue. However, now unburdened from office, I can shoot straight from the hip.

"I am looking forward to discussing all of the issues and taking calls from every corner of these islands. It's going to be honest, straight talking with a bit of fun thrown in."

.... and now for our first caller, welcome to the show " Raging of Bristol ".

" how are you this evening sir ? "

RoB : " inaudible...rage....**** off you ****** "

AS :  " Now really sir, calm down and make your point should you have one "

RoB : " Inaudible...Tory....GERS....Tory....Fed up funding...inaudible...extravagant lifestyle....inaudible.....subsidy junkie....god save the queen....T in the Park.....£20billion......SNP bad....die a failure.....****........ends.

AS : ( in a very smug tone ) " Atleast your not obsessed "  

[Comfy Bean]

7 hours ago, eFestivals said:

I'm sure someone will take the trouble to throw him some awkward questions, just as I'm certain others will cheer the evasive answers he gives in reply and claim them as adequate answers.

It`s good your keeping an open mind 

[Comfy Bean]

On 05/01/2016 at 4:11 PM, eFestivals said:

there's not been a post in here for a while, and as it's today I thought it was going to be about the boycott of Tunnocks. Apparently it's a good thing to try and make fellow Scots unemployed and poorer if the boss is a nasty status-quo-ist.but it's SNP-baaaad to mention that effect.

 

 

 

I heard this on the radio yesterday. First day back at work and it was on the news at 6.30am. Cheered me up no end as I drove through the rain. The Beeb and Neil think it is an outrage ( and news worthy ) that 2 folk on twitter moaned that Tunnocks have called them british teacakes on their adverts in the London underground.

The Unionists are trying to make this into a storm in a tea cake cup. Desperate scenes.

I think there is alot more mileage in this other unionist smear. I for one blame Salmond and am considering my position....................

"  The number of people dancing in Scotland has halved since 2007 – proof that the SNP has taken the spring from the country’s step, new figures have suggested. ....... It’s clear thousands of people right across Scotland are worn out by the nationalists’ narrow-minded constitutional wrangling and grievance agenda. "    

http://www.scottishconservatives.com/2015/12/7905/

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

It`s good your keeping an open mind 

Some things are beyond an open mind, they're proven solid fact.

Such as 'Project Fear' being the victory of fact over the standard nationalist empty rhetoric and deliberate lies.

Look around you, and you might spot another referendum .... where the standard nationalist empty rhetoric looms large too. UKIP and the SNP are the same empty vessels.

 

Edited January 7, 2016 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

 

I heard this on the radio yesterday. First day back at work and it was on the news at 6.30am. Cheered me up no end as I drove through the rain. The Beeb and Neil think it is an outrage ( and news worthy ) that 2 folk on twitter moaned that Tunnocks have called them british teacakes on their adverts in the London underground.

The Unionists are trying to make this into a storm in a tea cake cup. Desperate scenes.

 

I don't think it's an outrage.

I think its high comedy value should be cheered to the rooftops. I'd be very happy for it to be a TV mini series ... which doesn't seem to be outrage to me.

But I see you can't help under-playing your fellow nutters, who are a bit more than just "2 folk on twitter". It might not be every nationalist nutter, but enough to show the thinking.

Me, I merely mentioned something that's happening and something that's been reported.

You decided to lie about it.

Desperate scenes indeed.

Edited January 7, 2016 by eFestivals