thought for the day... again... capitalism? dying? dead?

[eFestivals]

PS: when you say people don't really understand what they're talking about in regard to a tobin tax and bankers, I guess you think that the likes of Soros and Buffett don't understand international finance and the consequences of a tobin tax?

[lost]

the news suggests only the French blocked our amendments to the treaty.. and the tobin tax doesn't seem to be one of them

[5co77ie]

It's not just his "banking buddies" that have been protected. I have too. I would have been out of a job if the finanical transaction tax was implemented. .

I dont work for a bank.

Your view is rather narrow minded.

[eFestivals]

No, I mean that it is not just banks that would be affected by a tobin tax.

I know. The speculators who add no value to anything would be a bit more fucked. And that's undoubtably a good thing.

I'm well aware of the financial sevices sector contribution, isnt it something like a measly 11%?

that's the tax take, yep - but it's not it's contribution. It runs at a deficit.

[5co77ie]

The French and the Germans have little interest in protecting Britain's

[5co77ie]

It makes me cringe everytime people go off on one about "bankers" when they dont really understand what they are talking about.

[5co77ie]

Your understanding of Europe is as poor as yesterdays... When you totally misunderstood the clauses governing us.

Europe can not afford to isolate itself from Britain... As much as Britain can not afford to isolate itself from Europe...

If it happens it will be due to bad politics on both sides...

We need a common market... We don't need a federal europe on French and German terms....

[russycarps]

well the tobin tax was devised for a very different reason than people seem to think. It was devised to cushion exchange rate fluctuations in the 1970s. It was never designed as a revenue stream.

There are many better ways of regulating and getting money out of the financial services sector than this clumsy thing.

[5co77ie]

If you think dismantling Britain's Financial sector is really the way this country moves on you are having a laugh. We need to regulate stronger but a Tobin tax on a purely European basis would be disasterous for our future.

[eFestivals]

The banks fucked up and fucked us up as well... Granted.... But they are also the thing Britain uses to get out of this mess as well...

that's something which can only happen if the whole thing dopesn't all happen again.

As yet there absolutely nothing that's been put in place to stop it happening again. A tobin tax - even if just applied in this country - would help stop it happening again.

If you think dismantling Britain's Financial sector is really the way this country moves on you are having a laugh.

If you think there's anything done by Dave Moron last night that will stop it being dismantled anyway you're having a laugh.

Like it or not our financial sector is going to go into terminal decline. It's how that decline is managed that will be of the utmost importance.

Without regulation they will simply steal from us all again - and as scottie points out, when that happens we'll have no one to turn to for support. Moron has ensured that next time it's fatal to this country.

We need to regulate stronger but a Tobin tax on a purely European basis would be disasterous for our future.

That's simply not true. What is disastorous is speculation that only takes from us.

[5co77ie]

We need a common market... We don't need a federal europe on French and German terms....

[eFestivals]

Agreed, but how exactly is us not going to be there in the decision making going to aid us in preventing a Federal Europe on their terms?

Spot on. Dave Moron has ensured that there WILL be a federal Europe on French and German terms.

What does Barry think the 17 nation deal is all about?

[5co77ie]

You really are talking crap...

The changes proposed would of required a treaty change. Cameron vetoed that.

[eFestivals]

BTW, the UK will gain out of Dave's stance in the short term, I've no doubts about that.

But in the longer term he's ensured we're fucked ... just so he can be the tory glory boy and perhaps win the next election. And I hope he does, because before the end of that second term it will all come crashing down.

[eFestivals]

We have chosen not to be part of it. And its the right move...

I repeat.... We want a common market... not a federal europe only on France and Germans terms...

And what we've achieved is the continuation of that common market in the short term (but only in the short term), and the creation of a federal Europe (slightly smaller than the EU, of course) on French and German terms.

Which will be of most importance in coming years - the rump of the EU where no agreement can ever be made again, or the federal Europe of 17 states which has a massive population and a massive economy and where agreements can be made?

If Dave Moron has had a victory then its an exceedingly hollow one, because he's ensured what he said he'd stop.

[5co77ie]

We have chosen not to be part of it. And its the right move...

How much backing will we get now from member states in arguing for our position when the current treaties are revised?

I repeat.... We want a common market... not a federal europe only on France and Germans terms...

[lost]

beeb now suggesting Ireland may need to hold a referendum on the treaty

[5co77ie]

What do you think was on offer last night ? It was the France / German federal europe you just agreed you didn't want...

[eFestivals]

Unless the WHOLE of Europe work together it is fucked. The Germans / French are as much to blame if Europe fails.

the 17 countries will work together. They've got a basis to work together with.

They can't work with someone who won't work with them,.

[russycarps]

If it was a UK&Germany alliance rather than Germany&France Europe would be laughing. And we'd all be rich as hell.

[eFestivals]

[5co77ie]

Good (non-Tory) biased article here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/dec/09/labour-condemns-cameron-eu-veto

"So Britain gets blamed if the euro falls apart taking us down with it and our only ally is the nasty regime in Hungary. Diplomatic triumph," wrote the Exeter MP, Ben Bradshaw

[5co77ie]

Seems The Economist is as 'doom and gloom' as know nothing me:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2011/12/britain-and-eu-summit?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/parted

Well done Dave - it could force euro-denominated transactions to move out of London and into eurozone financial hubs such as Frankfurt.

[abdoujaparov]

Cameron appears to have traded short-term political advantage for any influence over the direction of the rest of the EU...it's difficult to see hpow that could possibly be to the UK's advantage

[russycarps]

When and where will the first proper uprising in Europe occur do we think? I dont think the italians have got the stomach for it. Greece? They are feisty enough I guess. I wonder how many more elected governments will be forced from power. Interesting times ahead.