thought for the day... again... capitalism? dying? dead?

[eFestivals]

My point has always been that we are in an age of incredible scientific discovery that has come to fruition through competition and capitalism

That's undoubtably true, but with "competition and capitalism" being the only game in town then it couldn't be any other way anyway.

So it's ultimately a statement that says and proves nothing.

Meanwhile, capitalism has spent the last 60 years slagging off communism as financially incompetent because of it's slower 'growth' - and yet capitalism is the one that has shown itself as incompetent, and is hoping (probably fruitlessly, but that's not the point) that a communist/state-controlled economy is going to bail it out. It's the most amusing situation that someone of my age (who experienced all that laughable anti-commie propaganda) is ever likely to encounter.

The real issue comes back to the fact that the 'growth' the capitalist world has been claiming for itself has been a confidence trick. Anyone who did such a thing outside of the approval of the formal capitalist system (stock markets and the like) would be banged up and the key thrown away as the fraudster he is, which only gets to expose those systems as morally criminal.

[eFestivals]

They are essential in modern business...

Utter utter bullshit. Completely laughable.

I've had mobile phones for over 25 years. After about 5 years of using them (long before most people had even touched one, let alone used one or owned one) I got to realise that there's actually very little advantage to them, and any advantages are far outweighed by the disadvantages from a business angle.

As a result, there's less than 5 people I do business with who have my mobile number, and there's less than 5 who also have my (private) business number. I also have a public business number, and work things on the basis that anyone phoning that public number is of little direct importance to the business (cos that's the reality).

I've successfully run the current businesses now for 12 years, and could have done that without a phone, and (if it's wasn't an online business) without email, and I'd have suffered not a jot as a result. If you have what people want, they'll write a letter if that's the only way.

You think mobile phones essential to your business only because you've made them essential by your reliance on them. If you cease to rely on them then the world doesn't stop turning.

[Purple Monkey]

Which information and facts are we talking about here?

[Purple Monkey]

Those are peoples opinions, dogma and rhetoric... Little facts...

[5co77ie]

Bill Nighy on the Robin Hood Tax:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/bill-nighy/bill-nighy-robin-hood-g20_b_1073165.html

[5co77ie]

If they don't global civil unrest will just get worst as the poor suffer more and more. I think they have to take notice, I see California is currently seeing 'Occupy' protests (see below), and Washington DC, Los Angeles and San Francisco are calling on Congress and global leaders to adopt a small “Robin Hood” tax (financial speculation tax) to create jobs. If the US vote to back it then with France, Germany, Spain, Austria, Argentina, South Africa and the European Commission backing it too - it's more likely to be considered. How it would operate and actually benefit the world's poor would be the next problem.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-15568057

[5co77ie]

I think you'll find most people in the US who are on these protests are doing so because they have the 'shitty end of the stick' and are self centred, they've lost their incomes, their homes, and their futures.

The problem for global government is that those numbers of hard done by will rise drastically in 2012, people will not go happily into a global recession happening whilst their financial sectors get rich, we are not 'all in this together' it's a fundamental unfairness - and 'fairness' is another major factor in how vehemently people protest.

When people feel hard done by, and perceive 'wrongdoing' happening to them, it effects them they tend to vociferous about complaining and are more likely to get angry - they have nothing else to lose.

Idealogical protests tend to be more peaceful affairs as they don't directly affect those protesting.

Governments may these days be the puppets of financial institutions but population unrest is a costly activity both in policing and damage repair, just look at Greece, and it's fear of this that may force governments to act in the interest of their people rather than for those holding their purse strings.

[eFestivals]

What the hell do you know...

what I know from being in business a hell of a lot longer than you.

You don't understand business... Not one little bit...

Efestivals gets no respect from me as a business... Its ultimately a little website serving a niche market on information and flogging TV shirts... You can't for a second compare it to many other business in this country... Not for a second Neil...

You don't have to respect my business, but unless you're more than a few sandwiches short of the hamper you do have to respect that it's successful without any reliance on a mobile phone.

And that aside, I kept £100M+ turnover a year businesses running (that could not have continued to run without me or someone doing the jobs I did) without reliance on mobile phones, and while other people in those businesses did use their mobiles nothing about the business would have been effected if they'd binned them.

Do come back to me when you manage to turn over just the first million in any year instead of just the around-a-hundred-k you manage now.

[eFestivals]

Global agreement on things like the Robin Hood Tax would be a good thing... But it needs to be world wide otherwise it will just see us lose the banking industry from the our country to another not operating it...

PMSL - your grasp of economics is a poor as Gideon's.

Please do tell me what advantage there is to the UK in hosting businesses that are bankrupting us?

Fuck what the rest of the world wants to do, what we should do is only allow sustainable businesses. If we did - and did it without waiting for the rest of the world - we'd end up gaining a HUGE economic advantage* over those other countries. And we'd get our £880Bn back, and need none of the cuts we're having.

(* I'm not saying that we should, but within what we have now we certainly would. Just refer back to the break up of the gold standard for the proof).

[5co77ie]

That is what I said...

They aren't against capitalism as such... They are against shit pay, their homes and futures like you say... They aren't really there protesting because people are having a shit time in Africa. Many won't give a fuck and just want there own lives back to "normal".

Its just important not to confuse what their issues are.

[5co77ie]

I'm at a bit of a loss to understand why anyone would want to support what effectively is 'gambling' on stocks and people who speculate on finance as proper businesses that we should want to keep in the city anyway. They only benefit themselves.

Currently over 200 million people are unemployed worldwide, and here the figure is almost 2.5 million (1 in 30 of the whole populace), with almost a million of those young people without work, taking a percentage of the money they are making from financial gamblers to help pay debts and create jobs or having them 'fuck off elsewhere' is no bad thing.

Edited November 3, 2011 by 5co77ie

[5co77ie]

But only from USA prosperity point of view... I have heard them... That is their focus...

[5co77ie]

Well that is not true.. Someone has success in one area and decides to invest some money in another company, enabling that company to grow, isn't always a bad thing...

[5co77ie]

Its actually a bit distasteful for you to link them in to this.

[5co77ie]

Well this is the point...

Capitalism isn't a bad thing in its own right... Some people are just greedy twats and you will have that with any system...

[5co77ie]

Its one thing to link up the style of protest... Quite another to totally and quite distastefully confuse the aims of the protests...

Libyans weren't dying to fight Capitalism ffs...

[eFestivals]

What a stupid question...

The point is clearly we want a strong and good banking system thriving in the UK that isn't bankrupting us...

Which we'll only ever get if banking is reformed, irreguardless of whether other countries bother or not.

Carrying on as we are will be bad for the UK. It would be cheaper to throw all the bankers out right now than carry on for another ten years as we have been.

There is no benefit to the UK in waiting for other countries. It's the precise opposite.

[eFestivals]

Well I am not personally against putting my controls over such things...

But only if everyone else does at the same time - a scenario you've said constantly will never happen.

So what you're really saying is that you'll make the right mouth movements but are perfectly happy to carry on as we are and put another 10% on your daughter's income tax right thru her life so that you can rich right now.

And .... while you like to think that you personally have earnt everything you have and that none of it is off the back of others, have you ever tried rationalising that idea with the fact of the national debt? .... the simple fact is that if what you said were true, there'd be no national debt ... perhaps you wish to laughingly believe that national debt is the result of other people's laziness and nothing about it is your own?

Edited November 3, 2011 by eFestivals

[abdoujaparov]

Well this is the point...

Capitalism isn't a bad thing in its own right... Some people are just greedy twats and you will have that with any system...

[eFestivals]

Depends what you are talking about...

Somethings need changing on a global level... Somethings can be changed on a local level...

I'm talking about reforming the banks, something you've said today (and previously) that you only approve of if done at a global level.

But it needs to be world wide otherwise it will just see us lose the banking industry from the our country to another not operating it...

I've pointed out the true fact that it'll be cheaper to close down the whole of the UK's banking sector than to carry on as we are.

But you'd rather piss another trillion quid up the wall. It's economic 'insight' like yours that has fucked us in the first place.

[abdoujaparov]

like Bill Gates ?

[eFestivals]

like Bill Gates ?

Yes, exactly like Bill.

From a capitalist angle, he can be applauded for giving all the money he's made away.

From a moral angle, he should have never acquired that wealth at the expense of the poor in the first place, and then there'd be no need for him to so 'generously' give them back the money he stole from them in the first place.

It's a fucked up world where it's the likes of Bill that has to come to the rescue of the poor, but then only the 'poor' that he wants to help while other 'poor' keep dying via the same system that made him rich.

[eFestivals]

You still haven't cleared up your role in a £100 million company...

It's of no relevance to this discussion, but by keeping their computer systems running 24/7/364 so that they could remain in business.

That business gave me a phone and said "have it switched on 24/7/364". I had it switched off 23/7/365. The business grew and grew, proving the non-necessity of mobile phones to that sizeable business.

[eFestivals]

PS: nothing of what Bill Gates did was done for money.

So that's the capitalist myth blown away yet again.

[The Nal]

PS: nothing of what Bill Gates did was done for money.