Football 2011-2012

[eFestivals]

The mickey mouse cup that went to penalties against Championship Cardiff? Spare me the bullshit mate. Kenny's shit. They're shit. Rafa had them playing some excellent football and brought some quality players in. Dalglish has them playing rubbish and has brought in guff. Argue pots and pans silverware all you like, but they're crap.

It was a shit final, but it's hardly unusual for a decent team to play shit in a final. One game says nowt about a team.

The team has been playing shit at times, granted. But they've also done a lot of playing well but failing to win when they should have done, too. So the results have (overall) been much worse than the performances.

Rafa had them playing some excellent football, but he also had them playing shit plenty of times. And he brought in some quality players - which just about all he sold again - while also buying plenty of shit too.

Liverpool have been playing rubbish since around the time that Lucas got injured and Gerrard came back - take your pick for which of those gets the blame for that drop-off in quality. But even with that drop their on-pitch performances should have won them most of those games; it's been the same problem they've had all season, of not being able to get the ball in the net (but not thru the lack of very good chances).

The players he's bought have performed lower than needed, but even so they've still only been a smidgen off what was expected (on the basis of making chances but not putting them away). And, if the stories of Kuyt going in the summer are true, then Kenny's aiming at a full rebuild which might have some of those signings being viewed in a different light by this time next year. He's certainly aiming at a different style, which might suit those signing better than this season has suited them.

As for what the cup is, it's more than you ever get to see round your way. If the north east had had the same "massive failure" in any season in the last 50 years we'd never hear the end of it.

[strummer77]

Liverpool have been playing rubbish since around the time that Lucas got injured and Gerrard came back - take your pick for which of those gets the blame for that drop-off in quality. But even with that drop their on-pitch performances should have won them most of those games; it's been the same problem they've had all season, of not being able to get the ball in the net (but not thru the lack of very good chances).

[The Nal]

I miss Lucas. Lots.

[strummer77]

When is he back?

[eFestivals]

Rafa won the FA Cup in his 2nd or 3rd season in charge too. He had his failings, a couple of major boo boos but he won the Champions League (unbelievably), got the final two years in a row, won the FA Cup and should have won the league. And all that under the ownership of dumb and dumber who hated him. And remember, he was competing against a Utd team with Ronaldo in it, Chelski managed by Mourinho, Arsenal team with Henry etc. The EPL was a much better standard then.

ahh, I forgot the cup - that was his 2nd season.

I agree that the league was stronger then - at the very top, anyway - but Rafa started well and then faded. And while some of that can be blamed on the owners, not all of it can - including some of the dreadful buys of his, and fucking off players such as Alonso.

So I reckon the jury is still out on Rafa (for all buy L'pool fans, anyway. He'll always be a hero with them for the Chumps). It could be said that he took a team that was almost there and made it worse.

You forget how much money Daglish has spent. A fortune. Look at the team that played yesterday - Shelvey, Spearing, Downing, Carroll, Maxi, Henderson. Average players. 12 losses in the league this season. 37 points behind the leaders - who are a far from great Utd side.

He's spent a lot, but you can take the Carroll money out of that really. It's a dreadful buy at half the price of course (I'm not trying to defend the actual buy), but the high money paid was the result of circumstances, with Torres forcing the need to buy and Newc exploiting the situation to charge that stupid price (and if what came out of Liverpool was right, that they insisted on a £15M profit on the sell & buy, then it's not as bad as it looks).

As for the team that played yesterday, I reckon that can be just about ignored. The league is dead for Liverpool for this season and it's now about making sure the squad is best set for the cup final.

And those 12 losses can have a different perspective. That's 12 losses all season in all competitions, which ain't so far behind Utd's losses over a similar number of games (and I'm not sure there's been much difference in the quality of opposition played either).

Kenny has won the pisspot, scraped by a Championship team on pens, and is in the FA Cup final. In both of those competitions combined, Liverpool have played against - what - 3 good teams?

You can only won against what's in front of you. It's not like Utd were losing to great teams in their many losses this season, as a comparison.

Don't get me wrong - its better to win something than not but I don't really think its a reflection in any way of how the club are doing in general. Its papering over the cracks.

You say that you think that Liverpool are papering over the cracks, but I'd say there's a strong element of that from the Utd fans that are slating Liverpool - after all, how many games have Utd lost during the whole season? It ain't so far apart, the strength of teams lost to ain't so far apart either, it's just the view of the competitions themselves which make the difference.

I do. They're not miles off the top 4, just a goalscorer, but regarding going for the league?

If you notice I didn't say anything about winning the league. And we agree, they're not as far away as their league position suggests.

And I'm not saying replace Carroll, Im saying they need someone to play with him who'll score goals. Or at least someone they can bring on to poach one.

I'd say they need to replace him (tho he's improving slowly). If they're going to get the goals they should be getting from the chances they've had they need someone in his position to be getting those goals. If you replace another player in the hope of goals it's more likely to affect the chances they're making I reckon.

[The Nal]

Anyway the league titles hotting up isn't it? Think City will beat United then fail against Newcastle personally.

[zahidf]

Five home wins in 17 games isn't it? that's terrible for any club surely, just in terms of pissing of the payign fans. If it wasn't King Kenny, the supporters would be in open revolt. Even as it is, it's not great for him...

The suarez stuff and legaue position makes it one of Liverpool's worse seasons. Still, they'll probably do better next year. Can't do worse!

[strummer77]

The suarez stuff and legaue position makes it one of Liverpool's worse seasons. Still, they'll probably do better next year. Can't do worse!

[pink_triangle]

He's spent a lot, but you can take the Carroll money out of that really. It's a dreadful buy at half the price of course (I'm not trying to defend the actual buy), but the high money paid was the result of circumstances, with Torres forcing the need to buy and Newc exploiting the situation to charge that stupid price (and if what came out of Liverpool was right, that they insisted on a £15M profit on the sell & buy, then it's not as bad as it looks).

As for the team that played yesterday, I reckon that can be just about ignored. The league is dead for Liverpool for this season and it's now about making sure the squad is best set for the cup final.

[strummer77]

At the start of this season you could make the argument that the management regime had changed and if the form continued there was a great chance of success this season. Unless theres a huge injection of cash (which I doubt) then I think potential champions league football will be a much harder sell.

[kaosmark2]

Riera cost 8m and was better than Downing. He was just a nob.

Johnson's fine. Great right back. Made a mistake yesterday but was MOTM otherwise.

Add Alonso, Torres, Reina, Kuyt, Mascherano, Benayoun, Arbeloa, Aurelio (first time round), Agger, Lucas, Skrtel... Even now the best players we have coming through (Shelvey and Sterling) are his...

The grass looked greener because it was greener. Much.

[pink_triangle]

We got the luck that we shoudn't lose any players that we want to keep meaning our squad won't be any weaker next year. Arsenal, Spurs etc. might lose a key player or so. Though the weird thing is... if we win the FA Cup, whilst it won't mean the quality of our side is any better, it will have been a very good season. What a weird and wonderful game football is.

[kaosmark2]

As for what the cup is, it's more than you ever get to see round your way. If the north east had had the same "massive failure" in any season in the last 50 years we'd never hear the end of it.

[worm]

Sadly, Boro are the only team to achieve that. Got the Carling Cup a decade or so ago under the Wally with a Brolly.

And Pardew's promised to win us a trophy in the course of his 5 year contract

[eFestivals]

I have always thought that 15 million profit sell and buy story was bollocks. From a business perspective it makes no sense to go for a set profit, surely its all about buying as low as you can and selling as high as possible, I dont understand why you would set a limit on this, why have a 15 million pound profit when you could have a 16 million profit, it makes no sense.

It might be bollocks, I wouldn't be surprised.

But if you go with that, and put a price on Torres of about £30M - which is around the normal price for a top quality striker - then that makes Carroll a £15M buy.

In that sort of context it looks far from dreadful given how Carroll was rated at the time he was bought, even if Carroll's performances since don't make him worth that £15M.

I dont think the leagues as irrelevant as you make out. Overseas players considering joining liverpool will put more stock in league finishes than cups which dont nomrally have the same importance abroad. While money will always be the main factor, I believe that many players want to see the potential of champions league football. At the start of this season you could make the argument that the management regime had changed and if the form continued there was a great chance of success this season. Unless theres a huge injection of cash (which I doubt) then I think potential champions league football will be a much harder sell.

I don't think the league is irrelevant, full stop. That's not the point I was trying to make.

But all the same, any team will win a number of all their games over a season, and they'll lose others.

On the basis that any team tries to win all their games and tries to lose none of them, which way it pans out for which specific ones they win or lose is outside of their control.

There's more than one way to look at a season, and league position against the league positions of other teams is not the only way. I've not counted it up, but I'd guess that Liverpool have played a similar number of games to City and Utd (given that Liverpool had full cup runs in the domestics, and City & Utd had a long cup run in the two euro comps they were both in), and the number lost for each of those three teams is around the same for each of them.

And, I'd guess that if Chelsea and Arsenal were considered in the same way they wouldn't be far from the same numbers too.

None of any of those teams would have wanted to lose any of the games they lost, but they did. The way the cookie has crumbled this season has meant that Utd & City have mostly won their league games but lost the cup ones, while for Liverpool it's been the other way around.

Nothing of that is me saying that Liverpool prefer to have cups than they do the league position, but they do have a cup (and perhaps two) while City and Utd have the league positions.

So I really don't think things have been as bad as particularly The Nal want to present things as. You might say that's me trying to paint over the cracks at Liverpool with their cup runs, but there's little different in the end going on from the likes of The Nal by drawing attention to L'pool's league position - because Utd's cup losses are losses no different to L'pool's league ones.

Losses are losses. Where they happen is little more than a flip of a coin at the end of the day.

[strummer77]

To me 2 cups and a poor league position is a mixed season not a veyr good one. I dont personally think birmingham had a very good season because they won a cup last year. As someone on the radio said you cant have a open top bus procession for a 3rd place league finish but to me the league is always the bread and butter of football. I still dont believe many arsenal fans would swap probably champions league football for 2 cups but maybe liverpool having not been in the tourmanemt for a couple of years will not see it as such a big loss.

[kaosmark2]

Can't see it myself. Not after he sells Krul, Tiote, Cabaye and Ba for several million more than they're worth.

[worm]

As for what the cup is, it's more than you ever get to see round your way. If the north east had had the same "massive failure" in any season in the last 50 years we'd never hear the end of it.

Edited April 23, 2012 by worm

[zahidf]

Good comedy from Media Watch on football 365

Mediawatch noted last week that Kenny Dalglish was labouring under the impression that Liverpool had reacted tremendously to their Carling Cup victory, despite going on a run of one victory in seven Premier League games that began with a home clash with Arsenal.

"We were delighted with the response after winning the Carling Cup (in February)," said Kenny before facing West Brom at Anfield.

The good news for Liverpool fans is that they have responded very well indeed to reaching the FA Cup final too.

"After we won the Carling Cup, we came back and played Arsenal and we were brilliant. We got to the final last week after beating Everton and they came out today and were excellent again," said Kenny after facing West Brom at Anfield.

The sharper-eyed amongst you might spot that they lost both those games.

and

It's A Miss

"The woodwork, again, wasn't our best friend," said Kenny. Because when the woodwork IS your best friend, it moves out of the way and lets you score with a "technically perfect" (copyright Luis Suarez) shot that just happens to be off target.

Edited April 23, 2012 by zahidf

[worm]

I don't think it'll happen. Might fluke the Carling Cup or nab the Europa, but I can't see us winning one of the big trophies.

I don't think any of them will go this summer. They're all on 4+ year contracts, have said they see their future with us, and even though I reckon we'll end up in the Europa, I'd hope that's enough to convince them our ambition matches theirs. If we screw up next season we'll lose them all though.

[kaosmark2]

Birmingham got relegated mind. Bit different. Although I remember hearing fans on 606 saying he wouldn't swap that cup for league survival.

The league is the bread and butter as Shankly said. But he also said "If you are first you are first. If you are second you are nothing". A third place league position is 'meh', there's no two ways about it unless you win the CL the next season.

I'd rather win two cups than come third every season, although you need both for sustained success obviously. However football is about winning things. If Arsenal are happy coming third so be it. The Arsenal fans I know feel differently though, at least they did when Spurs were third and they were in the cups...

[pink_triangle]

Birmingham got relegated mind. Bit different. Although I remember hearing fans on 606 saying he wouldn't swap that cup for league survival.

The league is the bread and butter as Shankly said. But he also said "If you are first you are first. If you are second you are nothing". A third place league position is 'meh', there's no two ways about it unless you win the CL the next season.

I'd rather win two cups than come third every season, although you need both for sustained success obviously. However football is about winning things. If Arsenal are happy coming third so be it. The Arsenal fans I know feel differently though, at least they did when Spurs were third and they were in the cups...

[kaosmark2]

On word mate: Ashley. And here's another three while you're digesting that one: Sports Direct Arena.

[worm]

All very true. He promised to expand the stadium if we ever finished top 6. I'm willing to bet the fuckers not going to do it now either.

[eFestivals]

Sadly, Boro are the only team to achieve that. Got the Carling Cup a decade or so ago under the Wally with a Brolly.

And Pardew's promised to win us a trophy in the course of his 5 year contract

Boro achieved quite lot less than Liverpool have this season. Facts are facts.

But if they had done as much as Liverpool have - a decent league position (for any team aside from L'pool), won one cup and in the final of another - then it would have been considered as a massive thing, a team on the verge of a massive break-thru, ready to challenge the big boys.

It's the fact that it's Liverpool who have done this which makes it seem poor, because they're a team which much more is expected off.

And while that's true, what can't really be denied is that - despite the disappointment of the league position for Liverpool (just Liverpool!) - it's still a step forwards. The league points are just 3 points less than they was at this point last year (hardly a massive failure, even if it's not the hoped-for improvement), while they've won one cup and might win another (which takes winning games just like a good league position does).

It's silly willy waving to say it's been a dreadful season. It's not like anyone expected them to win the league or be close to doing that this season. They could have done better of course, but they could have also done far far worse in the cups, cups where they knocked out the biggest teams.