Football 2011-2012

[eFestivals]

I was surprised at the noise coming from the Aldershot fans during a game I saw on TV.

God know what the noise was like last night.

Fourth round here we come. I've got my fingers crossed for one of the big boys to visit the Rec - that'll shock 'em.

[The Nal]

God know what the noise was like last night.

Fourth round here we come. I've got my fingers crossed for one of the big boys to visit the Rec - that'll shock 'em.

Edited September 21, 2011 by The Nal

[strummer77]

Hmmmm, have to agree to disagree then.I dont think hes a Liverpool player. Not even close.

I agree that Liverpool are in a better position than 12 months ago. I was just referring to that game on Sunday. I still think Liverpool have a great shout at champions league this season. Expecting a good second half after Kenny finds out his best 11, which will exclude Carroll in my opinion.

[ralph250]

Agree with that, liverpool are now competitive with spurs and arsenal they may not get 4th place but they have a better chance than last year. I thought it was silly some of the criticism kenny was getting. Its not like liverpool have a significantly stronger team than spurs, to think they should just go to white hart line and win comfortably is unreasonable expectations.

[eFestivals]

I do very much agree also that at the moment the best 11 is without Carroll. Whether its his fault or not we play better without him.

yeah, I can't see how he fits in ... unless perhaps if he's played as part of a 4-5-1, tho as he's not been played like that it can't be how Kenny sees it.

I'd be interested to know if he was a Kenny or a Comoli buy. I read recently that Suarez was all Comoli's doing, tho Kenny thought it was a great idea.

I wonder if things are different with Carroll but that Kenny feels obliged to play him cos of the money spent on him, much as seems to be the case with Torres at Chelsea (tho with the owner having of course made that buy).?

I still think Carroll was an important buy because it showed the club's ambition after losing Torres, but even taking that angle on things he's looking worse and worse value with every match.

[The Nal]

anyway....

brighton v liverpool....

Edited September 21, 2011 by The Nal

[eFestivals]

Interesting post Ralph.

Not trying to be all doomsday scenario as Arsenal in a year or so could suddenly click and go on a period of dominance, who knows? but equally there seems to this perception that FFP will be their saviour, but surely there's just as much chance it's what kills them. If fall out top 4 and someone well equipped (eg. Liverpool have the fanbase) usurps them, then suddenly it's a huge swing. Liverpool get the additional £35-40m to spend, and Arsenal lose those figures, and ability to spend to get back in will be curtailed.

What I think you missed from your consideration around this part is Arsenal's starting position for the FFP rules, and their position with their debts compared to just about every other club.

Because Arsenal have been player-trading at profit, they've money to spend against the FFP rules even before they move into the allowed over-spend of £50M in regard to that.

And while they might have to borrow the money they spent (I'm not sure of their cash position), and they have large debts (as far as I know, I've not followed things closely) from building the Emirates plus converting Highbury, they're solidly able to cover those - but of course these could be covered by 'other'* money that's allowable by the FFP rules for capital projects like these, freeing up the money that's currently being used to service those debts to spend on players.

(* they could do a bond, they could use some money of their main owner. They have options).

And their final asset is of course Wenger. However badly this season might go, he's going to remain one of the most respected managers around on his record to date, and because of that they'll get players that they might not have otherwise got having dropped down a peg or two.

So what I'm saying is that they're in an enviable position to get them back around the top if the worst does happen this season, a position that I can't believe is bettered by any other club in the Prem once those FFP rules are in play.

Of course, what I've not said is whether Wenger would be able to spend that money well. Anything could happen.

[eFestivals]

Tony? The footie thread? Are you lost?

Gerrard back tonight. They need him to start on the good foot.

will be interesting to see where kenny prefers to play him, and (if its a full strength team - i reckon it will be after Sunday) who misses out as a result.

I don't want to see Henderson on the wing again for a while, but I thought he was pretty good when he moved into the centre at the weekend, certainly much better than he was on the wing. So there's a huge number of possibilities I reckon for who Kenny thinks is the best midfield.

Apparently Ancelotti bought Torres. Ray Wilkins said he was in for him the previous summer and Abramovich had nothing to do with it.

I really can't see that, not at the price they paid.

Either way, Torres will come good. He is already, getting better with every game. A striker lacking in confidence doesn't score a goal like he did against Utd. Beautiful finish.

I think he's just about there already.

You're right about the great finish, and the miss he made was dreadful, but that's pretty much how he was at Liverpool anyway - I could never get my head around how so often he'd have such a poor touch, but when he did get it together it was hard to believe it was the same player his touch was so good. He's been back like that in the last couple of games.

[ralph250]

Interesting post Ralph.

What I think you missed from your consideration around this part is Arsenal's starting position for the FFP rules, and their position with their debts compared to just about every other club.

Because Arsenal have been player-trading at profit, they've money to spend against the FFP rules even before they move into the allowed over-spend of £50M in regard to that.

And while they might have to borrow the money they spent (I'm not sure of their cash position), and they have large debts (as far as I know, I've not followed things closely) from building the Emirates plus converting Highbury, they're solidly able to cover those - but of course these could be covered by 'other'* money that's allowable by the FFP rules for capital projects like these, freeing up the money that's currently being used to service those debts to spend on players.

(* they could do a bond, they could use some money of their main owner. They have options).

And their final asset is of course Wenger. However badly this season might go, he's going to remain one of the most respected managers around on his record to date, and because of that they'll get players that they might not have otherwise got having dropped down a peg or two.

So what I'm saying is that they're in an enviable position to get them back around the top if the worst does happen this season, a position that I can't believe is bettered by any other club in the Prem once those FFP rules are in play.

Of course, what I've not said is whether Wenger would be able to spend that money well. Anything could happen.

Edited September 21, 2011 by ralph250

[eFestivals]

The accepted deviation isn't £50m though Neil, and it tends downwards. In Euros, it's:

I knew it went downwards, but we're talking about Arsenal maybe going tits-up on the field this season, which presumably means a spend before it goes down.

But anyway, thanks for the numbers clarification.

My point remains tho whatever the over-spend threshold, that the club in the best position in regard to those rules is in the best position to get themselves out of their difficulties on the pitch.

Debt:

What's not given with what you've presented is what the debt is for.

A lot of Arsenal's debt has been against the Highbury redevelopment (I'm presuming it's still there) - where there's solid (much more so than players) assets against those debts, where the money to clear them sort-of magically appears (as the apartments get sold).

It's not all debt they need to trade their way out of, which is the case for the likes of Utd and many other clubs.

[eFestivals]

oooo, just thought too - their wages bill has fallen quite a chunk this summer too, probably saving something like £10M a year.

[ralph250]

What's not given with what you've presented is what the debt is for.

A lot of Arsenal's debt has been against the Highbury redevelopment (I'm presuming it's still there) - where there's solid (much more so than players) assets against those debts, where the money to clear them sort-of magically appears (as the apartments get sold).

It's not all debt they need to trade their way out of, which is the case for the likes of Utd and many other clubs.

Edited September 21, 2011 by ralph250

[pink_triangle]

I still think Carroll was an important buy because it showed the club's ambition after losing Torres.

[ralph250]

Hargreaves scores!

[pink_triangle]

For all you liverpool fans, they were talking about this game on talksport today. Not only the best perfromance I have ever seen from liverpol but the best I have ever seen from an english team and I was there to see it live!

[ralph250]

As for Arsenal, they have really suffered from the emergence of city. Its hard at present to see them as anything but contenders for 4th place, in this case their business plan has to be able to accomodate non champions league football as teams cant have good seasons every year and if your the 4th best then a bad season has obvious consequences.

Edited September 22, 2011 by ralph250

[Ed209]

Hargreaves scores!

[The Nal]

According to the beeb, Hargreaves made 54 passes tonight, eight more than he completed in the Premier League during his last three seasons at Manchester United.

Edited September 22, 2011 by The Nal

[eFestivals]

Question then - a fit Hargreaves or Gareth Barry for England?

A bit premature I reckon after just 60 minutes of footie.

Even a sicknote like Hargreaves can take longer than that to get crocked again.

[eFestivals]

yeah, I can't see how he fits in ... unless perhaps if he's played as part of a 4-5-1, tho as he's not been played like that it can't be how Kenny sees it.

will be interesting to see where kenny prefers to play him, and (if its a full strength team - i reckon it will be after Sunday) who misses out as a result.

I don't want to see Henderson on the wing again for a while, but I thought he was pretty good when he moved into the centre at the weekend, certainly much better than he was on the wing. So there's a huge number of possibilities I reckon for who Kenny thinks is the best midfield.

So it all became clear last night: Kenny plans to play a 4-1-4-1 formation, in some games at least.

I guess that that formation might see something a little better from Carroll, and it certainly has this summer's signings making a little more sense.

[ralph250]

At least Hargreaves didn't have a sliding on his knees celebration. Decent strike though.

Agree with Neil, a bit premature though to be discussing England. Will need to see if he can get 10-20 games behind him for City first.

[The Nal]

A bit premature I reckon after just 60 minutes of footie.

Even a sicknote like Hargreaves can take longer than that to get crocked again.

[eFestivals]

So if he plays 20 odd games then. After Christmas, if he finds his best form, the form he had when he was fit for Utd and in the WC for England....

Id have him ahead of Barry.

Agree its very premature, calls for Owen to be brought in now too after his two goals the other night.

At his best for England I'd have him before Barry.

But it's worth remembering that while in a small number of his later games for England he was excellent, in many of his earlier games he wasn't - he was the knocking boy cos his performances were often poor.

My memories aren't clear enough now for why he was so often poor, so I'm not ruling out that being a consequence of how he was used or players he was played with, but the fact remains he was often poor.

[ralph250]

Did you watch the City game Nal? Did Birmingham challenge them at all or was it City controlling? I missed the game, but seen the goal. Just wondering if anyone knew what his general performance was like. Looks like good performance based on his goal and good amount of passes for the time he was on the pitch but just wondering things like how he was on his defensive duties; whether City were tested at all in that respect? whether has lost a yard of pace? whether brave enough to go into challenges, or was he a bit tentative?

[ralph250]

At his best for England I'd have him before Barry.

But it's worth remembering that while in a small number of his later games for England he was excellent, in many of his earlier games he wasn't - he was the knocking boy cos his performances were often poor.

My memories aren't clear enough now for why he was so often poor, so I'm not ruling out that being a consequence of how he was used or players he was played with, but the fact remains he was often poor.