Football 2010-2011

[eFestivals]

Suffering brain fade are we?

There were less people there than the capacity, regardless of any extras that were there that shouldn't have been - and the fact that less were there than capacity should tell you how big (or small...) the issue of ticketless fans was.

The problem was being directed through the small tunnel, into the central pens - i.e. being directed to a space that was already over full when there was plenty of room for everyone there, if they'd been directed to the side pens...

The stand could certainly hold the allowed capacity, even if the allowed capacity was greater than it should have been in ideal circumstances. The problem was that too many tried to go into one particular part of it.

And those "too many" included people who shouldn't have been in the stadium (not just that stand) at all, because they didn't have a ticket. If those people hadn't have been there, then there would have been less people trying to get into that stand, and the crushes would have been lower than they were.

It's quite possible (tho we can never know for sure) that not too much different would have happened if those ticketless hadn't have been there, but it's also a reasonable assumption that they added something (if only a tiny bit) to the crush pressure - and that tiny addition might have made the difference between life and death to one or more of the victims. While we can never know if it might have made that difference to the victims, we do know that each extra person added to the crush pressure.

[The Nal]

The stand could certainly hold the allowed capacity, even if the allowed capacity was greater than it should have been in ideal circumstances. The problem was that too many tried to go into one particular part of it.

And those "too many" included people who shouldn't have been in the stadium (not just that stand) at all, because they didn't have a ticket. If those people hadn't have been there, then there would have been less people trying to get into that stand, and the crushes would have been lower than they were.

It's quite possible (tho we can never know for sure) that not too much different would have happened if those ticketless hadn't have been there, but it's also a reasonable assumption that they added something (if only a tiny bit) to the crush pressure - and that tiny addition might have made the difference between life and death to one or more of the victims. While we can never know if it might have made that difference to the victims, we do know that each extra person added to the crush pressure.

[the_hedge]

Steady on, he's unattractive to watch supposedly.

/index.php?showtopic=124749&st=9500">http://www.efestivals.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=124749&st=9500

[TheGayTent]

Neil, do you enjoy spouting shit??

A few facts for you:

1. Wednesday's admission count system showed the terrace did not exceed the 10,100 capacity
2. The HSE in their analysis after the event gave three different estimates of the number of fans entering the ground - these included those that came through the turnstiles, those that came through Gate C after Duckenfield had opened it, and those who climbed over the turnstiles. First figure was 9,267, their second (and 'best estimate') was 9,734, and their final ('maximum estimate') was 10,124.
3. After hearing all the evidence, Taylor himself stated that "there was no substance to the allegation that ticketless fans caused the disaster"

Still, you keep on with your crap, f**k knows why, there's far more important issues that should be discussed.

[eFestivals]

Neil, do you enjoy spouting shit??

A few facts for you:

1. Wednesday's admission count system showed the terrace did not exceed the 10,100 capacity
2. The HSE in their analysis after the event gave three different estimates of the number of fans entering the ground - these included those that came through the turnstiles, those that came through Gate C after Duckenfield had opened it, and those who climbed over the turnstiles. First figure was 9,267, their second (and 'best estimate') was 9,734, and their final ('maximum estimate') was 10,124.
3. After hearing all the evidence, Taylor himself stated that "there was no substance to the allegation that ticketless fans caused the disaster"

Still, you keep on with your crap, f**k knows why, there's far more important issues that should be discussed.

why do you not understand the difference between "caused" and "contributed to"?

The disaster was caused by more people being in an area than that area was able to accommodate. If those without tickets hadn't have been in the ground, would the number of people in that area have been the same or less?

One less person would have meant a lesser crush pressure.

f**k me, aren't you meant to be an engineer? Can you please tell me what you've helped build, so I can avoid it for my own safety.

[The Nal]

He's a footballers footabller. Helps if you know a bit about the game to appreciate a player like Scholes.

Edited April 15, 2011 by The Nal

[strummer77]

why do you not understand the difference between "caused" and "contributed to"?

The disaster was caused by more people being in an area than that area was able to accommodate. If those without tickets hadn't have been in the ground, would the number of people in that area have been the same or less?

Edited April 15, 2011 by strummer77

[TheGayTent]

Probably exactly the same to be honest.

That area was allowed to keep filling when it should've been closed long before. There were plenty of Ticketed fans behind ready to take the spaces of your ticketless fans. If the ticketless fans weren't walking into that crushed pen, a ticketed fan would have been. There was plenty of spaces just not there, it should have been shut off.

[TheGayTent]

why do you not understand the difference between "caused" and "contributed to"?

The disaster was caused by more people being in an area than that area was able to accommodate. If those without tickets hadn't have been in the ground, would the number of people in that area have been the same or less?

One less person would have meant a lesser crush pressure.

f**k me, aren't you meant to be an engineer? Can you please tell me what you've helped build, so I can avoid it for my own safety.

[The Nal]

So it was a mistake by the police, a poor safety culture in English football at the time and some fans without tickets not helping things.

Who deserves to be prosecuted though?

[ralph250]

Scholes is the best player I've ever seen play live. Ive seen Cantona, both Ronaldos, Nesta, Giggs, Keane, Gerrard, Alonso, Barnes, Rush, Shearer, Rooney etc and never seen a player dictate a game and the pace of a game like him. He was literally involved in everything.

Cant see him doing anoher season though which is sad.

<snip>

[TheGayTent]

Who deserves to be prosecuted though?

[TheGayTent]

Paul Scholes? Cracking player...

... the dirty ginger bastard.

[eFestivals]

Probably exactly the same to be honest.

That area was allowed to keep filling when it should've been closed long before. There were plenty of Ticketed fans behind ready to take the spaces of your ticketless fans. If the ticketless fans weren't walking into that crushed pen, a ticketed fan would have been. There was plenty of spaces in that end just not there, the central pen should have been shut off but it wasn't.

Think about it: that pen would have filled until it could fill no more regardless of ticketed fans.

It filled up til it could fill no more, because of the pressure from the number of people behind.

The number of people both in that area and pushing from behind included some ticketless people. If you take those ticketless people away, then the whole situation becomes less severe than it actually was. How less severe we can't know - but less severe all the same.

Two different situations very rarely equal an identical outcome.

And - again, we can't know - perhaps if those ticketless people were removed from the whole situation, then perhaps the old bill wouldn't have felt the need to open the gates as they did, and the situation inside would never have come about.

To believe they had no bearing at all how events played out is contrary to all sense.

[strummer77]

So it was a mistake by the police, a poor safety culture in English football at the time and some fans without tickets not helping things.

Who deserves to be prosecuted though?

[the_hedge]

Paul Scholes? Cracking player...

... the dirty ginger bastard.

[eFestivals]

I'm not meant to be an engineer no.

Thank f**k for that.

I suggest you go do some reading.

I don't need to read anything to know that a crush with fewer people is less likely to be as big an incident as a crush with more people involved, thanks.

But if you can point me at some reading which says the consequences will always be the same, I suggest you take up comedy.

[strummer77]

It filled up til it could fill no more, because of the pressure from the number of people behind.

The number of people both in that area and pushing from behind included some ticketless people. If you take those ticketless people away, then the whole situation becomes less severe than it actually was. How less severe we can't know - but less severe all the same.

Two different situations very rarely equal an identical outcome.

And - again, we can't know - perhaps if those ticketless people were removed from the whole situation, then perhaps the old bill wouldn't have felt the need to open the gates as they did, and the situation inside would never have come about.

Edited April 15, 2011 by strummer77

[eFestivals]

Perhaps the village idiot will understand you...

Yes, I'm the village idiot. And you know everything about everything football.

Apart from the rules, as you've shown on many occasions. It always makes me laugh when you get certain parts wrong, as you consistently do.

[strummer77]

I don't need to read anything to know that a crush with fewer people is less likely to be as big an incident as a crush with more people involved, thanks.

But if you can point me at some reading which says the consequences will always be the same, I suggest you take up comedy.

[TheGayTent]

Yes, I'm the village idiot. And you know everything about everything football.

[eFestivals]

The killing comes from the overcrowding in the central pen. There were easily enough ticketed fans to fill that pen, and they would have because no-one directed them either way. The individuals would change, maybe the numbers slightly but not greatly. The fans were the heroes that day not the villains.

whether there were enough ticketed fans or not is not really what I'm getting at. And it wasn't only the fans who got into that pen that was the problem - the problem was also those outside the pen still trying to get in, trying to force their way in.

The greater the number of people trying to in and trying to get in, the greater the crush. True, or false? It's undoubtably true - and so any without tickets added to the problems.

As for the opening of gates... Don't be silly Neil. The ticketless fans were not that influential on the gates. And anyway, once that gates opened if you direct people into the side pens no-one gets hurt. Stop banging your drum, it's just wrong.

It's no more wrong - and actually less wrong - than pretending that all aspects of what went on didn't contribute to the outcome.

To take the opposite extreme from what went on, if everyone had queued in an orderly fashion, the old bill would never have had to open the gates, and nothing would have happened that day. The fact that they weren't all completely orderly contributed.

If I'd have been there that day, no doubt I'd have acted in a similar manner to many of those fans, and tried to get in the quickest way I could - so I'm not saying what I'm saying with any pretence of perfection.

I'm simply recognising that actions have consequences, and that to pretend otherwise is daft.

[eFestivals]

Nicely put. I hope you remember that yourself the next time you put on your spurs, get on your horse and ride into town shouting retard.

[ralph250]

So it was a mistake by the police, a poor safety culture in English football at the time and some fans without tickets not helping things.

Who deserves to be prosecuted though?

Edited April 15, 2011 by ralph250

[eFestivals]

Why can't you get that the crush would have the same number though? Without the police shutting off the central pen, it was going to fill with an identical number of human beings whether they had tickets or not.

The whole situation could only involve an identical number of human beings if people being there without tickets made no difference whatsoever to the number of people involved overall.

The problem wasn't only within the pen; it also included those outside the pen who were trying to get into the pen. It was the pushing of those outside the pen who were trying to get into the pen that added to the problems within the pen.

The numbers were swelled by there being extra numbers than there would have been if there'd only been those with tickets inside the stadium.

I'll say again: I've not said any ticketless caused the problems, but they added to them to some extent. A crush with greater numbers is a bigger crush than a crush with fewer numbers.