Football 2010-2011

[TheGayTent]

Sheffield Wednesday actually had no current safety certificate for the ground and the one they did hold had not, despite various changes to the ground, been updated since it was issued in December 1979! This actually meant the ambulance route no longer existed because of the changes to the stand...

The police officer in charge that day hadn't ever before been in charge of a football match. In 1981 the police had advised that the overall figure of 10,100 for the Leppings Lane terrace was too high and yet the capacity was not reduced.

The police did not divert supporters from the packed pens into ones either side of the central one where supporters were congregating. To make matters worse a front barrier was corroded, and under the pressure of the excessive and uncounted number of fans allowed in, it collapsed directly causing a number of deaths.

A crush barrier had been removed from pen 3 in 1986 leaving a clear fall through to the front and a second barrier had had a gap inserted in it in 1985.

Lord Taylor rejected the idea drunk fans caused the disaster but instead was certain that the chief reason was police failure to handle the mass of supporters.

Edited April 15, 2011 by TheGayTent

[worm]

there's more to football than the 20 teams in the premier league.

[strummer77]

there's more to football than the 20 teams in the premier league.

i'm not telling others who to support. i'm just saying football would be a lot better if they did support their local team. there's far less wrong with that than someone from carlisle supporting man utd for no reason other than they're good or their dad supported them.

am i fine to switch allegiance to england then? they're better than scotland and why can't i support england if i want to?

Edited April 15, 2011 by strummer77

[The Nal]

So ... two great matches this weekend....

Utd vs City - I can't make up my mind which way this will go. Utd's dodgy away form says that City must have a chance, tho Tevez being out is a big blow to them. If it was a match that could be drawn I'd probably plump for that, but as it's not I'm going to go for a Utd win

Arsenal vs Liverpool - Liverpool's form against the 'big' teams is good, so they must be in with a shout. But Arsenal are fighting for the league and this is a match they need to win if they're going to top Utd. If there's a winner then I reckon it'll be Arsenal, but I think a draw is more likely.

Given my form with predictions, if you want to make some money, bet against what I've said.

[strummer77]

Sheffield Wednesday actually had no current safety certificate for the ground and the one they did hold had not, despite various changes to the ground, been updated since it was issued in December 1979! This actually meant the ambulance route no longer existed because of the changes to the stand...

The police officer in charge that day hadn't ever before been in charge of a football match. In 1981 the police had advised that the overall figure of 10,100 for the Leppings Lane terrace was too high and yet the capacity was not reduced.

The police did not divert supporters from the packed pens into ones either side of the central one where supporters were congregating. To make matters worse a front barrier was corroded, and under the pressure of the excessive and uncounted number of fans allowed in, it collapsed directly causing a number of deaths.

A crush barrier had been removed from pen 3 in 1986 leaving a clear fall through to the front and a second barrier had had a gap inserted in it in 1985.

Lord Taylor rejected the idea drunk fans caused the disaster but instead was certain that the chief reason was police failure to handle the mass of supporters.

[worm]

Anyone can theoretically play for any club side so why not support any club.

[eFestivals]

... but the ticketless fans bit is irrelevant...

Hmmm, while I'm not wanting to argue over such a sensitive subject, I can't see how you can say that.

The problems were caused by too many people going into too small a space. If just one of those people was a ticketless person, then that person made the problems worse by their presence.

Having said that, I'm well aware that there's lots of other things in the mix as well, and had things been better organised then no ticketless fans would have got into that stand. But its believed that a number of ticketless fans did do, and I reckon it's fair comment to say those ticketless people hold an amount of culpability because they shouldn't have been inside the stadium at all; it's not like the old bill forced them into the stadium, even tho it was the old bill's doings which allowed them in.

[TheGayTent]

Hmmm, while I'm not wanting to argue over such a sensitive subject, I can't see how you can say that.

The problems were caused by too many people going into too small a space. If just one of those people was a ticketless person, then that person made the problems worse by their presence.

Having said that, I'm well aware that there's lots of other things in the mix as well, and had things been better organised then no ticketless fans would have got into that stand. But its believed that a number of ticketless fans did do, and I reckon it's fair comment to say those ticketless people hold an amount of culpability because they shouldn't have been inside the stadium at all; it's not like the old bill forced them into the stadium, even tho it was the old bill's doings which allowed them in.

[ralph250]

So ... two great matches this weekend....

Utd vs City - I can't make up my mind which way this will go. Utd's dodgy away form says that City must have a chance

[ampersand]

Don't know your issue with the parents thing. Perfectly natural. It's part of your heritage.

Anyway do you support your local local team (i.e. Welton Rovers of the 9th tier who play up the park) or the closest club of reasonable size (i.e. a team in the football league)? If merely the latter you should change considering what you post.

And international is a a complete red herring. Anyone can theoretically play for any club side so why not support any club. You can only play for certain international sides so you would only logically support them. That's 100% different and you know it. Though of course you could simply not take an interest in the mundane world of international football

[eFestivals]

Piffle. It's acknowledged that there were less people in the Leppings Lane end that day than the Liverpool allocation for the same area.

It's also acknowledged that there were a number (how many can be disputed, but there were some) of ticketless fans in the stand.

If they hadn't have been there - and by any sensible view they shouldn't have been there - then there would have been fewer people creating a crush.

It took a combination of circumstances to cause that tragedy, and while I don't doubt that the actions of the police were the major cause, one of those circumstances was people in the stands without any 'right' to be there because they didn't have tickets. To ignore or refuse to accept that aspect is silly.

Especially as those ticketless fans were a part of cause of the crushes outside the gates, which then led to the old bill opening the gates and allowing too many in at once in an uncontrolled manner.

It's rather dumb to expect perfection from the old bill, but to completely absolve any and all fans of their own imperfections when they're of relevance.

Edited April 15, 2011 by eFestivals

[ralph250]

I have never seen United play since the 80's so hoping Scholes plays so I get to see him before he retires, even as a Liverpool fan (I say fan, more a 80's bandwagon jumper )I never tire of watching him, by far the best player the Premiership has seen in my opinion.

[eFestivals]

he's unattractive

Corrected for you.

[strummer77]

It's also acknowledged that there were a number (how many can be disputed, but there were some) of ticketless fans in the stand.

If they hadn't have been there - and by any sensible view they shouldn't have been there - then there would have been fewer people creating a crush.

It took a combination of circumstances to cause that tragedy, and while I don't doubt that the actions of the police were the major cause, one of those circumstances was people in the stands without any 'right' to be there because they didn't have tickets. To ignore or refuse to accept that aspect is silly.

Especially as those ticketless fans were a part of cause of the crushes outside the gates, which then led to the old bill opening the gates and allowing too many in at once in an uncontrolled manner..

Edited April 15, 2011 by strummer77

[strummer77]

i don't see how it is different. it's all about territory innit? i'm from scotland so i support scotland. i'm from livingston, i support livingston. both logical. being from england and supporting england, and being from portsmouth and supporting man utd is anything but logical.

[eFestivals]

Ticketless fans were, like it or not, part of fan culture then. There was a tiny minority without tickets and by all accounts the disaster would have happened regardless of their involvement. It was irresponsible of those fans to turn up without tickets, but to suggest they were really a cause of the crush is wrong.

I've not said "they were a cause of the crush", I've pointed out that the presence of any ticketless fans added to everything which went on.

The police are at events like this to (try to) keep order, but that doesn't mean that everyone else has a free right to act in whatever disordered manner they fancy. The simple fact is that had everyone who was there to watch the match kept perfect order (such as queuing patiently and awaiting their turn to enter) then it's unlikely (unlikely, but not impossible) that those sad events wouldn't have occurred.

I'm not trying to suggest that complete order would have been a fully reasonable expectation by anyone, btw. I'm merely pointing out that things are not as simple and one-sided so that any part of what went on that day can be dismissed as an irrelevance. Everything was in the mix to some extent - it was a combination of all circumstances that caused all of what happened (with some having a greater bearing than others), not just any particular act or acts.

Edited April 15, 2011 by eFestivals

[TheGayTent]

It's also acknowledged that there were a number (how many can be disputed, but there were some) of ticketless fans in the stand.

If they hadn't have been there - and by any sensible view they shouldn't have been there - then there would have been fewer people creating a crush.

It took a combination of circumstances to cause that tragedy, and while I don't doubt that the actions of the police were the major cause, one of those circumstances was people in the stands without any 'right' to be there because they didn't have tickets. To ignore or refuse to accept that aspect is silly.

Especially as those ticketless fans were a part of cause of the crushes outside the gates, which then led to the old bill opening the gates and allowing too many in at once in an uncontrolled manner.

It's rather dumb to expect perfection from the old bill, but to completely absolve any and all fans of their own imperfections when they're of relevance.

[eFestivals]

It's something that was passed over as virtually an irrelevance in every meaningful report I've read on the subject. I.e. the numbers without tickets that were in that area are thought to have been so low that it made no discernable difference.

To continue to believe that aspect had any meaningful effect on the situation that occured that day is idiotic.

If there's a space which can only hold 100 people and no more, but you put a further person in, what happens?

It's not idiotic to include all things of relevance to what happens. It is idiotic to say some things of relevance are of no relevance.

[TheGayTent]

The police are at events like this to (try to) keep order, but that doesn't mean that everyone else has a free right to act in whatever disordered manner they fancy. The simple fact is that had everyone who was there to watch the match kept perfect order (such as queuing patiently and awaiting their turn to enter) then it's unlikely (unlikely, but not impossible) that those sad events wouldn't have occurred.

[TheGayTent]

If there's a space which can only hold 100 people and no more, but you put a further person in, what happens?

It's not idiotic to include all things of relevance to what happens. It is idiotic to say some things of relevance are of no relevance.

Edited April 15, 2011 by TheGayTent

[The Nal]

Considering they were directed to enter the central pens that were already overfull regardless of whether you believe people were keeping 'perfect order' or not, there would still have been a problem.

Of course no one has mentioned the fact that had it not been for the fences in the first place none of it would have been possible...

[TheGayTent]

Was that not the case with a lot of grounds at the time?

[strummer77]

Was that not the case with a lot of grounds at the time?

Edited April 15, 2011 by strummer77

[eFestivals]

Considering they were directed to enter the central pens that were already overfull regardless of whether you believe people were keeping 'perfect order' or not, there would still have been a problem.

I don't think they were actually "directed to enter the central pens", it was more the case that no-one was directing them away from them, wasn't it?

And of course the numbers flooding into the stadium at that time - cos the old bill had opened the gates and let huge numbers thru - had a bearing on things there too. If it had been more normal numbers entering, then it might well have been the case that people would have seen they were full and gone elsewhere. But because of the numbers they didn't have the opportunity to go elsewhere, because they were being pushed by others behind them into that already-full area.

[TheGayTent]

I don't think they were actually "directed to enter the central pens", it was more the case that no-one was directing them away from them, wasn't it?